Author Topic: cheap rifles? mosin nagant scout scope rail settup?  (Read 11816 times)

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Offline recurve shooter

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cheap rifles? mosin nagant scout scope rail settup?
« on: January 25, 2011, 01:01:27 am »
im looking to buy a new rifle soon, but i have some strange criteria and was wondering what you guys would suggest. i know some of you are rifle cranks, and have some surpluss rifles or old bolt actions. i want something scoped, cheap, and accurate. i LOVE the mossin nagant, but they dont come with scope rails, and gunsmith work aint cheap. the sniper version sells for like 400 i think and i really wanna go cheap. dragonovs are to expensive, but a friend recomended the mossin nagant scout carbine. dont know how accurate it would be though. i want something cheap, that i can get surpluss ammo for, that i can put a scope on, and that is verry accurate out to at least 100 yards. there isnt even a range in louisiana that i know of longer that 100, much less a hunting shot that far. sooo any suggestions? i like surpluss wwII rifles.  ;D
« Last Edit: January 25, 2011, 01:08:43 am by recurve shooter »
lets just shoot it

Offline recurve shooter

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Re: cheap rifles?
« Reply #1 on: January 25, 2011, 01:08:06 am »
WAIT! looks like they make a scope rail that replaces the rear sight on a mosin, i assume it works on the full length rifle, where you can mount a long eye relief scope infront of the bolt. that looks like it would be PERFECT! anyone tried it or know anything about it? thanks!
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Offline chigger

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Re: cheap rifles? mosin nagant scout scope rail settup?
« Reply #2 on: January 25, 2011, 11:14:27 am »


   I went with the SKS very dependable and accurate,ammo is the cheapest out there,FMJ and Hollow points about the same price..IMO

Offline skyarrow

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Re: cheap rifles? mosin nagant scout scope rail settup?
« Reply #3 on: January 25, 2011, 11:40:57 am »
my sks didnt like scopes lol i shoot better iron site  i have a carbine version of the mosin 1942 mdL i think they sell a scope mount that requires no drilling you could look into a kar98 or a 1909 7.65 Argentine Mauser,Yugoslav M48 Mauser they  shoot well  i ownd a dragonov a few years back it shot up to 1300 meters but it is very long and heavy. another one to look into is the Enfield No. 4 Mk 1 .303 British well thats all i can think of another one to look into is a Springfield but they ar not as cheap and the remington 700 well ttyl and good luck
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Offline Dane

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Re: cheap rifles? mosin nagant scout scope rail settup?
« Reply #4 on: January 25, 2011, 12:39:56 pm »
The Mosin-Nagant is a very dependable, easy to maintain, cheap rifle. It shoots the oldest military cartridge still in production (7.62x54R) and ammo is easy to find and cheap. I am a big fan of the Mosin, which was one if not the first smokeless bolt action rifle adopted by any military. It is actually a Belgium design in part.

Be aware that the M44 carbine has a tremendous kick. You can actually see the flame shooting out of the muzzle in low light conditions.

The safety on this weapon is rudimentary, be aware of that. Safest is to keep the chamber empty until you are ready to shoot, which may be liability if you plan to hunt. They use a five round box magazine, with either stripper clips or you can load each cartridge by hand after opening the bolt.

Also, you have a permanent bayonet mounted on the weapon, with folds out. Soviet / Russian doctrine called for the bayonet in a big way. Not sure why, the Russians really loved the bayonet, though.

If you are lucky enough to find an M44 dated 1943, it is valuable as a collector’s item, so don’t alter it. The carbine was in full production from 1944 through the middle 1950s, if I recall right. Most Soviet block countries manufactured or used it, so you can find Chinese ones, Yugo ones, Bulgarian, Romanian, East German, Vietnam, etc. It is possible that one you end up buying was used by the Red Army to take Berlin, or in some of the other very savage battles between them and Fritz, as the Soviets called the Germans. In a way, too, you are honoring the forces that really were the single biggest part of defeating Hitler.

Go on ebay or do a web search and you can find a zillion scope mounts for the Nagant.

I don’t have an M44 right now, but do shoot an 1895 3-line from Tula that was converted to a Finnish home guard rifle at one point, and a 1943 M91/30 made by anther arsenal. Both are highly accurate and a lot of fun. I used to think they were really ugly, but the look grows on you, and they have a kind of brutal, simple elegance. And these old military surplus bolters are far more rugged than AKs, SKSs, M16/AR-15s, etc. No polymers, no plastics, all steel and wood construction. If you never shot one, you probably will be surprised at how authoritative the report is when you pull the trigger for the first time. They are heavy enough (the regular infantry rifles, not the carbines) that recoil is pleasantly absorbed. They also have much greater range than most shooters can possibly utilize, and you can see that if you look at the rear sight and see how many meters they can be used at.

If you get the cheap Russian surplus ammo, clean the heck out your weapon after you shoot it, as they use corrosive primers in that kind of ammo.

Be aware that the M44s are getting a bit rarer to find anymore, and you may want to just stick with a 91/30. Both round and hex receivers are perfectly fine. I paid about 90 bucks for my 91/30. Try to look for all matching serial numbers for all components (bolt, box magazine, receiver, etc), but force matched are fine too.

If you do want to tackle converting one to a “sniper”, you can find reproduction scopes and mounting hardware for about 250 dollars. The machining is very simple to perform, so you don’t necessarily have to find a smith, mostly drilling and tapping the mount into the receiver and also removing some wood on the stock. I don’t think any M44 carbines were scope mounted by the USSR, though, but for a knock around rifle, why not? If you go that route, you will have to get a replacement bolt that has a bent bolt handle instead of the straight one of the standard infantry rifle. The mounting rail method is way easier, if not historical.

Dane

PS British SMLEs are fantastic, and super fast action, but more expensive and the ammo is more expensive than that Soviet weapons. The Mauser can be pricy, but is a lovely weapon, as well. Try to avoid the Mark IV jungle carbine variant if you decide on a British bolter, as they are exceptionally unpleasant to shoot, but really cool looking too.
Greenfield, Western Massachusetts

Offline recurve shooter

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Re: cheap rifles? mosin nagant scout scope rail settup?
« Reply #5 on: January 25, 2011, 03:49:42 pm »
wow. dane, lots of info there! thanks man! my friend has one of the 91/30s, and everyone that shoots it falls in love with it. he sanded all the gunk off the wood and refinished it to a really pretty light oak collor. at the 100 yard rifle range (serriously, 100 yards is long range for louisianians. cant find a longer space to play in.) clay pigions, open sights off hand, just with the jurry rigged sling wrapped around your arm, is easy. i love the simplicity and just ruggedness (is that a word?  :P) of them. and you are absolutely right about the report, weight, and pleasant recoil obsorbtion. as long as your wearing ear pluggs, its just sweet to shoot.
now, as for historical accuracy, though i would love to have the money and time to try for it, i just dont. im a senior in highschool workin as a buss boy lol not much cash here. i just want something reliable, cheap, accurate, and with a scope. sooo i believe the mosin is the way to go, just the standard long heavy and ugly. i think with that scope rail that replaces the rear sight, a nice modern scout rifle scope, a muzzle brake that replaces the bayonette, and maby some kinda bipod, it could be a really accurate, really cheap, really dependable "dragg through the swamp" rifle. i believe thats the way im gunna go.
UNLESS anyone has tried the scout scope rail rig things and found them to be not so great.  ;D
lets just shoot it

Offline JackCrafty

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Re: cheap rifles? mosin nagant scout scope rail settup?
« Reply #6 on: January 25, 2011, 04:13:33 pm »
Wow is right!  Good info Dane!
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Offline jeffhalfrack

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Re: cheap rifles? mosin nagant scout scope rail settup?
« Reply #7 on: January 25, 2011, 05:07:14 pm »
  Have  you   ever  seen  a  M|N  with  a  synthetic  stock????   good  looking  rifle,,,there  was  a  gun  show  here  awhile back,, a  guy had  a  few  scoped  like  that  $250.oo  complete I  couldn't  keep  my  hands  off  of  it!!!!,,,,,,,,no  I  didn't  buy  one  that  show  is  due back  soon,  I  saved  some  $$$$$$   we'll  see  JW

Offline agd68

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Re: cheap rifles? mosin nagant scout scope rail settup?
« Reply #8 on: January 25, 2011, 06:44:49 pm »
The only trouble with scoping a Mosin Nagant is that the standard rifles have a straight bolt handle. When you open the bolt the handle points straight up and wont clear a scope The sniper version has a turned down bolt handle. You can modify it though if you can weld. I may be biased being Canadian but having owned and shot the Lee enfeild, M91/30 and the M44, I'd take the Enfeild. Better quality and better handling gun. The 10 round box magazine does'nt hurt either. 303 ammo may cost a little more but all the big names make it besides military surplus and it is a whole lot easier and cheaper to reload than 7.62x54R. The Russian round uses a Berdan primer which can be hard to find and pricey when you do.
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Offline bubby

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Re: cheap rifles? mosin nagant scout scope rail settup?
« Reply #9 on: January 25, 2011, 07:05:32 pm »
they sell a kit, scope mount and turn down bolt that you cut off the straight and attach benddown, seems to me you can get a glass stock and the rest for $100.00, got my mosin at Big 5 for$75.00 but now the run about$90.00, got them all the time, and with the iron sights on the third or fourth shot I nailed 10 ring on our ranges 1,000 yd target, but that was just luck, Bub
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Offline mullet

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Re: cheap rifles? mosin nagant scout scope rail settup?
« Reply #10 on: January 25, 2011, 07:17:37 pm »
  This is just my opinion, but I wouldn't waste my money on those old Eastern Block rifles. SKS before the Clinton ban could be bought for $80, now they are triple and still junk. Mosin Nagant were out gunned in Vietnam by Remington BDL's and Winchester's. You can buy good guns at gun shows for the same prices you by Russian stuff. Ammo is better, also. I wouldn't buy those guns unless I was collecting them for a military collection.
  Also, a lot of that Russian, dirty, smokey ammo is full metal jacket, which is pretty much illegal to hunt with in most states.
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 If you have to pull the trigger, is it really archery?

Offline recurve shooter

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Re: cheap rifles? mosin nagant scout scope rail settup?
« Reply #11 on: January 25, 2011, 08:05:41 pm »
mullet, yeah the dirty smokey junky corrossive russian surpluss fmj rounds are illeagle, but cheap enough to shoot fifty rounds or so when i go to the range just for fun. and you can find soft nose hunting amo for it, new production, good stuff. but ima look up some of the other rifles these guys suggested and check them out, but if i can ever figure out if the scout scope settup for the mosin is any good, thats probably the rout i'll go.
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Offline Dane

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Re: cheap rifles? mosin nagant scout scope rail settup?
« Reply #12 on: January 25, 2011, 08:55:59 pm »
No problem on the info. I can see Mullet is not a fan of Russian stuff. He has a point on SKSs and of course, you gotta extend that to the AKs. AKs are absolute garbage compared to Western rifiles, the bolts bounce around like crazy and fit and finish are sub-par, but for what they were intended for, they do the job and really well.

As for the Mosin's being outgunned in Nam by Remingtons...how did all that end?

I got in an argument at an Armed Forces Day event a few years back with this dude who had a display. Nice guy, but when the conversation led to Russian vs. US and German weapons in WWII, and specifically the Panzer tanks vs. the Soviet T-34s, and which was superior as a battle tank. The guy hated the idea of the superiority of the T-34, but history shows us this is so.

In the end, the Mosin is a fun, very inexpensive weapon that has been pretty much continuously in use in conflicts around the world from the 1890s to today. They are still in use in some places, and probably will be for a long time.  The surplus ammo is not great, but super cheap fun, and investing in reloading equipment or buying really good ammo will improve the performance. They have been proven in many ways, including the world's great Russian and Finnish snipers, who used the Mosin. You can't argue with hundreds of kills guys like Zaytsev produced (over 200), with one Russian sniper racking up 500 kills, and a Finn who scored 505 kills with a Mosin, and he was the highest scoring sniper of any war. One female Red sniper had over 300 kills.

Now, off to have some vodka :) Or at least a microbrew.

Dane
Greenfield, Western Massachusetts

Offline chigger

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Re: cheap rifles? mosin nagant scout scope rail settup?
« Reply #13 on: January 25, 2011, 10:07:22 pm »
 

   I  bought my SkS to throw behind the trucks seat for Coyotes and Varmints, where I would hate to to abuse one of my good rifles like this.I've bought them for 69.95 but not anymore ,I believe the price has proved them,I gave 300.00 for my last one(scoped)It is made close to the AK47 what  is considered the best military rilfle rifle every made,but my opinion would be the M 1 Garand , The Sks has a loose mechanism and the reason you never have one to jam.I bought a new Rem.7400 and it jammed ever time I shot it.To each his own..Imo

Offline mullet

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Re: cheap rifles? mosin nagant scout scope rail settup?
« Reply #14 on: January 26, 2011, 12:03:15 am »
 Dane;
  Mosins didn't outgun Remingtons or Winchester Model 70's in Vietnam. Also had nothing to do with the outcome. Somebody called off the B-52's.

 For a good 100-150 yard gun I'd buy a good Winchester or Marlin lever action 30-30. Killed an awful lot of big game animals in North America and they have always been cheap.
« Last Edit: January 26, 2011, 12:07:22 am by mullet »
Lakeland, Florida
 If you have to pull the trigger, is it really archery?