Small fissure crack between two knots, should I be concerned????!!!!

[1776J]

I've seen some footage of people working Osage and Yew making similar if not the same type of bow I'm looking for.  Actually doesn't look to bad at all really.

I suppose I've been stand-offish due to the fact that I did not want to get into doing something I did not fully understand yet. 
Not so much that I doubted my skills per say, as years ago I had actually worked in the
art world years ago, for many years, as a Fine Artist/Graphic Designer, yet always kept my hand in metalworking as my father had been a sheet metal man and then became a boilermaker later on. I was around forming metal since I was a little boy in fact.
Of course, having been sick of the politics of the Graphic Design and Art world, that showed me it wasn't based on your talent, but rather, who you knew and how much crap you were willing to take, I dove back into welding and metal working head on.

So, my thoughts in relation to having an "eye" for the form of wood, or sculpting, that shouldn't be a problem at all really.  It's more about proper technique, tooling, etc... rather than being able to "see" the wood for what it's doing,
how it's reacting, or forming the wood, etc.

I'll look into some of those books that were suggested to me.
Thanks fellas!
As always,....Much appreciated!

[Michael C.]

I just returned a boo backed hickory bow from a guy on ebay with the exact same issues your showing. His description sounded legit and when I asked him a few questions he sounded like he knew what he was talking about, so I suspect he's doing it to make cash, not quality products. The glue line you have there looks very similar to the one on the bow I received lots of gaps between the boo and the back of the board. He told me that the glue lines were cosmetic but that he would accept a return. The boo looked uneven on the parallel sides all the way down too, I don't know if that matters but I told him I would think it throws how the bow tillers off; he said it wouldn't because it was boo and it acted different from hickory. I don't know if that's true or not but I told him I would rather just return it.

I was hoping to get a good example to look at before I tried to glue up a piece of osage with some boo I got from D. Knight, I definitely know what not to do now though  That's the sort of risk you have to be willing to take though if you buy from places like that, sometimes you win sometimes you lose. I think Pappy or Pat used some fancy greek quote to express the buyer beware tradition and it's sort of sad you have to think that way, but they are right. At this point I'm willing to pay the extra money to not have to worry about the hassle anymore, I've learned my lesson (for now . Cheap is necessary sometimes, but you always pay for it in the end with extra work on your part or wasting money on a crap product.


edited
Wow I just saw how much you paid, mine was only about 45 with shipping, but I still returned it without even working on it because of the glue line. For that price I would just do like El D said and get in touch with Mr. Parker or  David Knight, I've never dealt with James but David has bow blanks that are less than that and legit. I've seen some of Davids and James blanks made into bows at OJam and they turned out beautiful and deadly quick. I bet they wouldn't mind setting it up for ELB if you ask them, but personally I would just make a flat bow, they don't need to be nearly as long and tend to be more user friendly in my opinion.

[1776J]

Wow I just saw how much you paid, mine was only about 45 with shipping, but I still returned it without even working on it because of the glue line. For that price I would just do like El D said and get in touch with Mr. Parker or  David Knight, I've never dealt with James but David has bow blanks that are less than that and legit. I've seen some of Davids and James blanks made into bows at OJam and they turned out beautiful and deadly quick. I bet they wouldn't mind setting it up for ELB if you ask them, but personally I would just make a flat bow, they don't need to be nearly as long and tend to be more user friendly in my opinion.

If either of these fellows are on here, how would I contact them?  Oh wait, I have the contact info for them,... I just found it!

I'm stuck on the "D" style English Longbow with a full arc bend to it.  Maybe a flat bow later on,...who knows??  
I'll see if either one of the guys would be willing to lend a hand with what I'm looking for.
Much thanks!

[backgardenbowyer]

If you are new to bowmaking and want an ELB I would recommend a laminated stave with a lemonwood belly.  Lemonwood is standard for ELBs made in the UK, osage is nearly unobtainable here, decent yew is scarce, expensive and not for beginners.  The standard ELB today is hickory backed, hardwood core (often purpleheart) and lemonwood belly.  Lemonwood is reasonably priced and very easy to work as it has almost no visible grain and in a bow stave should contain no knots.  I've never seen a chrysal in a lemonwood belly though I wouldn't say it could never happen! I don't know where you would get this material in the USA but you can buy lemonwood staves and hickory backing strips or ready laminated staves with a hardwood core from most of the professional bowyers in the UK.  Typically a lemonwood stave might be around £35, a backing strip about £25 and a ready laminated stave together with drilled horn knocks, string handle wrap etc. maybe £150.  You can't go badly wrong with this - the wood is so homogeneous you can make the bow by numbers! 

An alternative which I know is available quite cheaply for an ELB in the USA is hickory or bamboo backed ipe stave.  Ipe is very cheap here in UK so I use it a lot, but it varies in quality, it can chrysal, is a bit awkward to work and difficult to glue because of its oiliness.  None of these things should be a problem with a professionally laminated stave. You really need good quality timber in the belly of an ELB as this is very narrow and the wood there is subject to very high compression stress.

IMHO a professionally made stave should not have a glue line like that whether or not a toothing plane is used. I got a better joint on my first glue up using only hand tools and no previous woodworking experience.

I hope you get your money back and have much better luck next time. Even a good bowyer can make a mistake in assesing a piece of wood but a professional ought to be willing to acknowledge that.  Persist with this, making your own bow is hugely satisfying!

Stan

[1776J]

backgardenbowyer,...
thanks for the info and insight.
I very well "may" go the lemonwood route?  I'm looking to hunt with whatever I end up with though,... at a 50-55# draw weight.  Not just plunk at targets of course....
Good suggestions like I said,... you have me thinking.

[1776J]

Well, the bow was shipped back this past week, and according to the postal tracking info the bow was received at its destination address. 
As of yet, no refund. 
However, I'm taking the high road (so to say) by keeping a positive outlook on it with the mindset that the refund will happen by the start of next week.....

[PeteC]

It's probably already been said,but I don't like anything about this deal.I'd call the dealer up and tell him he IS going to either exchange it,or refund your money. JMHO God Bless

[ohma]

i say anyone who called himself an experienced boyer, and was selling his wares, that sold you that bow with knots positioned in a limb like they are was trying to get away with something. just like everything that gets very popular anymore,the crooks and wana  make some fast money jerks start filltering in, and i for one can see it happening in primitive archery.

[1776J]

It's probably already been said,but I don't like anything about this deal.I'd call the dealer up and tell him he IS going to either exchange it,or refund your money. JMHO God Bless

Yes, already did that,... it's strange how you can be as nice as a slice of peach pie, be a gentleman and somehow magically get yelled at!
That should sum it up,... so I'm just waiting now.  I was told my money would be "fully refunded."

[1776J]

Four days after its arrival to its destination for a refund and still nothing.
Maybe later today?

[1776J]

It now seems that there is no direct reference to me ACTUALLY receiving a, "Full refund" as I was promised by the bowyer.

His response to my asking when would I see a refund coming back to me?

My email to the bowyer:

Good day.

I am writing to ask you when I would see a refund for that Osage bow with the crack in it that you had instructed me to send back for a full refund?
According to the US Post Office's tracking and delivery confirmation, it had arrived at your P.O. Box at 8:38am on Friday, December 5th of last week, so I  figured I'd
contact you regarding it.

I thank you for your time.
Have yourself a good week.

Warm Regards,

Response from bowyer, quote,

"There will be an envelope in the mail for you as of this morning. Should be there by tursday or friday outlining the finding on this bow."

Absolutely NO mention that he will stick by his word and provide a full refund as he promised me both over the phone and via email.


This, after the last email I received from this man, which is as follows, quote,

"Your manners are nice, Your words lead to dissapointment. Dont you ever bother me again.
Send that bow back for a full refund and never speak to me again."

That email telling me not to, bother him, was sent in response to this email, when I wrote him after our phone conversation when I got yelled at continuously no matter what I said, how I said it, the tone, words, etc.
Quote...

 "I do not know what to say to you but, yet again apologize for upsetting you.
Neither one of us can assume anything about the other person.  Good or bad.
Each of us have our issues, however, neither of us should lash out as we have on the phone.

I did not appreciate when you told me that I did not know this or that, as you do not know anything about me.  I did not assume anything about you.
However, you cannot lash out at me for apologizing, and actually praising your work and me telling you that I so honestly appreciate your kindness and good nature when you had answered my questions in regards
to bow making, etc. 

I was not trying to pity you in regards to what you and I spoke of.  I was raised to be compassionate towards others, plain and simple.

I was truly hoping that our phone conversation would have gone much better.  I was hoping, and assumed that we would have easily came to an understanding about what I had wrote you and so on.  Instead, sadly, it went the other way. 

I do wish you a good day today and a good Thanksgiving this year.
I do believe that a man with your knowledge, a successful business and good friends has a lot to be thankful for , as I have a lot to be thankful for myself.

All things are possible with God,.... that is why I called you, that is why I wrote you, that is even why I first contacted you to see about ordering a bow.

As a side note, I want to thank you for your service in the military.  I have always honored and respected those who have served.  That's the way I was raised,...that's the way I will always be.
So, regardless of anything that was said, I thank you.  This is not pity,... this is not me feeling that I should say it, or that it would patch up anything.  This is just the way I am.  Simple.

I thank you once again for your time.
I will not take any more of it up from you as I'm sure you have a lot to do today.  You'll be in my prayers.
Have a good, safe holiday this week.
God Bless.

Warm Regards,"


I am supposed to be getting a, "full refund".....Supposed to be. 

I don't think I'm off base when I saw that this is absolutely NO way to treat a customer. 
I guess this is his Merry Christmas holiday greeting me?

This after he knows very well that I am expecting our first child, and that I wasn't even sure if I was going to take a dive and get back into archery, even though I really wanted to for some time now.  I gave it up after my great grandfather died years and years ago,... I lost interest after the man who taught me how to shoot passed.
I told the guy that I was mainly busy picking up everything we'll need when our little one comes, but that my wife had told me that it would be my Christmas present from her to me this year,... quite a pricey one at over $250 dollars or more (I can't recall right now, I'm to aggravated).
I wonder if maybe I've made a big mistake with the idea of getting back into archery and hunting at this point?
There have been a good number of really nice people on here thus far that have pretty much told me to keep my chin up with all of this, however, at the rate I'm going, I wonder if I'm better off just saying a big Thank You to those who've been kind and just bidding everyone a good bye from here and the entire archery world. 
In other words, to say that though there are a some I have had the pleasure of talking with on here, I feel like I'm waiting for the piano to just fall on my head already!  (Looney Tunes cartoon reference,...no matter what, something happens?)

We'll see.

As for this whole matter, I have been nothing but respectable even in the face of being treated like garbage, insulted and cursed at by this bowyer. 
In my WILDEST dreams, NEVER would I have imagined that something like this would have happened to me when I decided to work with this bowyer.
I had said that I would not share the identity of this fellow and his company that has treated me like this because even though in the midst of all of this I was treated badly, I would STILL keep my fingers crossed and hope for the best that
I would indeed see this fellow keep his word ( unless it all fell through, then I'd let people know exactly who he was).  There is no indication of a promise kept in any way or shape...

Well, this appears that by his words and deeds he is making it clear I will be getting the short end of the stick,...

THIS BOWYER THAT HAS DONE THIS IS, JIM AT RUDDERBOWS.

I do not advise ANYONE to ever deal with this man, unless you would like to run the terrible risk of having the same fate of being treated like this and ripped off as I have been.
However, this is simply my experience and my opinion.
I personally feel that people should be treated better especially when you treat them well yourself to begin with.

[Cacatch]

What an a$$hole. Well, sounds like the refund isn't coming, and he just wanted to leave you with absolutely nothing, not even the junk bow, and of course you even paid the shipping on returning the junk bow didn't you?     What a piece of work.  Well, short of going to see him in person I don't guess there is anything else you can do at this point. But if after this week you don't see a refund, I would make sure everyone I knew was warned not to do business with him, including everyone I knew on PA.

CP

[1776J]

What an a$$hole. Well, sounds like the refund isn't coming, and he just wanted to leave you with absolutely nothing, not even the junk bow, and of course you even paid the shipping on returning the junk bow didn't you?     What a piece of work.  Well, short of going to see him in person I don't guess there is anything else you can do at this point. But if after this week you don't see a refund, I would make sure everyone I knew was warned not to do business with him, including everyone I knew on PA.

CP

I agree....

FYI,...this was Jim at Rudderbows.

[mullet]

 Send me your address, I'll glue you up a bamboo backed piece of Ipe, if you aren't in a hurry. Free, to just get the taste out of your mouth.

[1776J]

Send me your address, I'll glue you up a bamboo backed piece of Ipe, if you aren't in a hurry. Free, to just get the taste out of your mouth.

Really,...I'm speechless actually??!! 

Thank you, but I hope you don't feel you have to or anything for any reason??  I mean, I MORE than appreciate that and honestly, I did 't quite expect such a kind gesture out of anything that was said or the circumstances!
Wow,... thank you,... really, THANK YOU!

I'll send you my address....
Again, I can only say, thank you. 
I hope I can return the favor in some way for you in the future.