thanks guys. paul this one was heated but i dont think enough. percussion was easy but as i got deeper into it it started stepping and i had to get a bit rougher with it. rick we'll spend some time together this weekend and focus on a piece. as for getting stuff thin it has become a bit of a curse. been trying to work on fluting and a lot of the pieces dont have a good enough center ridge. gotta relearn how to not drive long flakes. thanks again