Cane methods questioned

[nclonghunter]

I have seen the hardwood inserts for cane arrows that are reduced to a small diameter so it can be inserted into the shaft in what I would call a stair step method. Reducing the diameter in this method looks as if it would greatly weaken the insert "except for a perfect straight on shot" . Any side movement to the shaft would break the insert easily it would seem to me.
I would also suspect that tapering the hardwood insert,(like the end is tapered to glue on a steel practice tip) would be a better insert system than to stair step the insert. Anyone using the stair step insert method or the taper and has had experience with shooting/hunting with it, I would like to know the strengths and weaknesses to it.

I have read were cane arrows are spined then the stiff side is put to the shelf. I also wonder why the stiff side is placed towards the bow rather than the side that spines to match your bow. I have seen a single cane arrow spine from 80# to 50# depending on the side spined. If my bow shoots at 60#, then why would I put the 80# side to the bow? If the arrow must flex around the bow then the 80# side would be too stiff and cause erratic arrow flight or hit off to one side.

If you can help me understand these questions I would appreciate your efforts. I have some cane shafts ready  to cut nocks and add inserts and am looking for opinions before I go further...Thanks

[aero86]

i havent used inserts on mine, so i dont know.  but you need to match the spine of the cane to your bow. for yours, id suggest 70# on the stiff side, since cane is usually tapered

[stringstretcher]

I am not sure what you mean by "stair step" type of insert.  But using a solid dowell in the end to plug the cane and then tapering it gives you the same thing as a wood shaft that has been tapered.  As for the shooting and hunting with it, a pluged cane shaft will stand much more punishment than wood because of it woven fibers, like carbon, than what a grain run off in wood will hold up to.

Now for the stiff side against the bow?  Using the stiff side of the shaft cuts down on paradox, the bending of the shaft, which allows it to recover quicker, therefore straightening up quicker. 

Now as to the spine you would need?  Lots more variables are needed to know.  Whats your total arrow length?  What point weight are you using?  Is your bow cut for center shot or are you shooting around the bow?  And what string material are you using?  To get the most out of cane, and to have the most effective arrow, a lot has to be taken into the spine.  IMO.

[Hillbilly]

If you're going to use foreshafts, taper them. Personally I see absolutely no reason to use foreshafts in cane arrows. It's just a weak point and a pain in the butt to get balanced with not much benefit that I can see.

[riarcher]

The "test shafts" I made up were not footed, 30", 50# bow, bare shaft w/o fletch.
Shafts ran from 45# to 75# (@ 28").
Needless to say, some were almost hitting sideways. Never had a issue w/ 145 gr. points and shaft breakage at close range.
I doubt I'll bother to foot any unless it's simply for show (or boredom).
Couple even hit the oak frame (again not so straight on) and they lived.

[Pat B]

Like Hillbilly I see no need to foot a cane shaft. Haft the point directly into the cane, taper it for glue on points and use self nocks in cane.
 I did make one footed cane arrow and Wolf Watcher carries it in his quiver. 

[mullet]

 Myself and Mechlesher have used them with very good sucess on hogs. The new ones I'm using have very small (1"x 1/4" )  stone points attached are are made to detach on entry. Chris puts his on with super glue. The first hog he killed with one the foreshaft detached, went through the heart and the hog fell over dead in less than 5 yards.

[riarcher]

Like Hillbilly I see no need to foot a cane shaft. Haft the point directly into the cane, taper it for glue on points and use self nocks in cane.
 I did make one footed cane arrow and Wolf Watcher carries it in his quiver. 

For points I'm having good luck with drilling and Gorila Gluing the screw-ins.
The hollow core acts like a drill guide. Come out straight and concentic pretty easy.
I do wrap the pile end though, no biggie. I practice my rod building that way. 

[riarcher]

NC -
"I have read were cane arrows are spined then the stiff side is put to the shelf. I also wonder why the stiff side is placed towards the bow rather than the side that spines to match your bow. I have seen a single cane arrow spine from 80# to 50# depending on the side spined. If my bow shoots at 60#, then why would I put the 80# side to the bow? If the arrow must flex around the bow then the 80# side would be too stiff and cause erratic arrow flight or hit off to one side.


Stiff side is the heaviest spine side.
Using 4' I find the heavy spine side, then zone in on the desired spine and mark the center.
Then cut 3" longer on both sides of spine mark.
Rough straighten,, rough grind nodes, straighten, file nodes smooth,, remark spine point and cut to length. Semi-final straighten. Shaft done, all spines w/i 2# and heavy built to window.

I'm considering adding lengths of lead solder to the tails to match the heavies weight to keep them uniform..... maybe next time.

[Mechslasher]

first off, are you using dowels for foreshafts or nocks?  if using for foreshafts, then the joint is suppose to be the weak spot.  most people getting into making cane arrows don't understand that the foreshaft is suppose to break off after impact to save the main shaft.  "primitive man" figured this out and the reason, it's easier to find a straight piece of wood that is 4" long rather than 28" long.  using foreshafted arrows have saved me countless hours of remaking cane shafts that would have been broken had the arrow been a simple shafted arrow.  foreshafted arrows DO NOT like glancing blows, they will snap.  as they are suppose to.  i bounced a foreshafted arrow off a tree one time at a 3d target.  the foreshaft stuck in the target but the mainshaft went on its own journey.  but to answer your question, the taper method is the best of the two methods of attaching nocks or foreshafts.

to answer your second question.  if your bow is 60#, then the stiffest side of your shaft should be 60# and against the shelf so the arrow can deal with the paradoxing .  that is if your shooting a 28" shaft and a 125gr. point.  if you're using 80# spined arrows, then you need to be shooting 225-250gr point with a 28" shaft.  of course, you have to adjust spine for the amount of taper your cane has.  if not using this weight point, then chances are your 80# arrows will hit way left.  my formula for calculating arrow spine to too complicated to type, but it's usally dead on.  hope all this helps.

[aero86]

i say too bad its too complicated to type mech..

[Hillbilly]

Chris, I'm 110% with you on most things, but I hate a durn foreshaft, and find them to be worse than useless. I can make a new cane shaft, fletch it, and put a point on it quicker and easier than I can make, taper, and balance a foreshaft. And it don't break every time you shoot it like the foreshaft does.

[Mechslasher]

steve, i'd be the first to admit foreshafts are a first class pain, but i just get a kick out of seeing them work like the ancients designed them to.  kind of makes me feel closer to the primitive life style.  i also agree that cane shafts are hard as hell to break.  i had one of eddie's hogs to fall on a jap boo arrow one time.  it bent into a "c" and it still didn't break.  the only cane shaft i have had to break is with the hog you helped me find and i think it chewed on it to break it.

[Hillbilly]

Yeah, and it wasn't really broke, just kinda split. I was pretty impressed with the hog laying on it like that. I guess I'm with the ancients in my neck of the woods-the Cherokee didn't use foreshafts, either.

[nclonghunter]

Hillbilly, that is interesting you mention the Cherokee didn't use fore shafts...I had the understanding that they did, but I'm OK with that.
I have wondered if the fore shaft was primarily used in the larger cane spears as an atlatl. Then, perhaps the fore shaft idea was carried over to the arrow, but it just seems to me that the small diameter needed to make it insert into the end of an arrow makes it too weak and subject to breaking. I will continue mine arrows without using the fore shaft  and I appreciate the many ideas and experiences shared here.