Author Topic: trad versus primitive  (Read 31971 times)

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Offline sailordad

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Re: trad versus primitive
« Reply #45 on: March 15, 2010, 06:58:40 pm »
   I agree use a stringer.It does put exture stress on you top limb.I also build my bows center shot or as close as the stave will let me.The closer to center shot the less critial spine is.As far as weight this is why recurves shoot better at longer distances.Not there better built just the heavyness makes it more stable in the hand.
  Isn't getting close the reason we hunt.If not we'd all shoot compounds at 80 yards.

even with wheels i cant make 80 yrd shots  ;D
i always wanted a harley,untill it became the "thing to ride"
i ride because i love to,not to be part of the crowd

Offline mullet

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Re: trad versus primitive
« Reply #46 on: March 15, 2010, 09:04:15 pm »
 Looking at that arrow gun got me to thinking. One thing that would seperate all of them is if there was no longer access to the materials and technology of the Compound bow, compressed air arrow gun, or the fibreglass bow. If any of them broke and you could not get resin, meta,l machined parts or nylon pulley's and string, you would be screwed if you had to have it to survive. If a self bow broke you could make another one from numerous species of trees and manufacture your on string from organic material, vegetable or animal.

  And someone said on here once before, "If you have to pull the trigger, is it really archery?"
Lakeland, Florida
 If you have to pull the trigger, is it really archery?

Offline sailordad

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Re: trad versus primitive
« Reply #47 on: March 15, 2010, 09:09:19 pm »
Eddie, i like your line in qoutes at the end of your last post
mind if i steal it ??? ;)
i always wanted a harley,untill it became the "thing to ride"
i ride because i love to,not to be part of the crowd

Offline mullet

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Re: trad versus primitive
« Reply #48 on: March 15, 2010, 09:55:53 pm »
 Go ahead, Tim, Forgot who I stole it from. ;D
Lakeland, Florida
 If you have to pull the trigger, is it really archery?

Offline Dave 55

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Re: trad versus primitive
« Reply #49 on: March 16, 2010, 11:56:11 pm »
Archery is pretty much a journey I think ,for sure these days,some who start out on wheels will feel the call to a more trad bow,some who enjoy it will continue on to selhbows and such.Alot will be happy with sights,releases and so on and miss the spirit and enjoyment of it all.Take the guys who blow the dust of there compounds a few weeks before season for instance but the manufacturers want the sales so they give them what they want to be successful with a minum amont of effort.
Now is the good old days

Offline Steve Cover

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Re: trad versus primitive
« Reply #50 on: March 17, 2010, 07:44:08 am »
It is really as unimportant as the "Traditional" term for arrow stiffness testing being known a Spline, where the common "Present Day" term is Spine....

I hafta respectfully dissagree with this statement.The Term SPLINE has never,to my knowledge been used to define the stiffness of an arrow spine.Spline,is a  inserted reinforcement to the nock and or point end of an arrow shaft.I have read where many confuse the two terms and that confusion has for the most part been a Present day misconception and not a traditional  term or a correct one.
Sorry,but this is a pet peave of mine.LOL

Sorry I missed this earlier. 

Spline is the correct term for the method used to determine arrow stiffness.

Here is part of an explanation I gave on another forum.

The testing of arrow stiffness by measurement of deflection (bend) under stress of a weight is called spline testing.
The term goes back to the middle ages where architects were able to accurately duplicate a specific bend shape by using rods (called splines) of a known stiffness. 
These splines were suspended at a standard distance by two supports and a standard weight was hung from the center to cause the spline rod to bend to the desired arc.
By varying the stiffness of the spline rod, distance between support points and the suspended weights, almost any reasonable arc could be reproduced.

Because Medieval bows had no center shot cut out of the side of the bow, the string would apply force to the center line of the bow, while the arrow was supported on the side of the bow causing an off line surge of force on the arrow not in line with the arrow's center of gravity. 
This causes the arrow to bend...."Archer's Paradox".
Different width bow handles and different draw weights produce different amounts of archers paradox. 

The archers of the middle ages recognized this and needed a system to evaluate arrow stiffness to match to each bow.
They used the splining methods of the architects of the period to evaluate the stiffness of their arrows. 
To spline test an arrow shaft, it is placed on a jig with support pegs 26" apart, and a 2 # weight is suspended from the center of the two pegs. 
The deflection is measured to determine the stiffness of the arrow. Thus, the actual test to determine an arrow's stiffness is a Spline test, not a "Spine" test.

Here is a letter about medieval armor strength that references arrow spline:

.....................................................
Date: 27 May 90 12:28:28 GMT
Organization: Society for Creative Anachronism
Arrows versus arrow:

My lord husband is a maker both of chainmail and a shooter of bows. He conducted the following experiment.
He draped his chain mail hauberk over a six inch thick foam archery target when the target was still new and shot it.
The chainmail is made of 12 gauge spring tempered fully hardened stainless steel with and interior diameter of 1/4 inch. It is the densest, heaviest chainmail I have seen in the SCA. It is butted only, not welded or riveted.
An arrow fired form a 45 # recurve at a range of about fifteen yards penetrated the chainmail like it wasn't there, pierced the target foam, and pierced the back of the hauberk. The arrow stuck out about five inches behind the shoulder.

The arrow was a SCA legal wooden shaft. My husband was much impressed, and as a reminder of the lethal power of archery, he repaired the hauberk with bronze rings to mark the place.
Interestingly, the armor suffered little damage. One ring was deformed to the point it had to be replaced, the other rings around it merely were reconnected when the new ring was inserted.
The arrow was undamaged by being drawn through the target and armor, if you'd like to try this yourself.

I think the longbow used in the previous reported experiment against plate mail must have been rather light. also, do note that "poundage" of bows does not produce the same amount of force in spite of the same weight. A bow that is sluggish in firing and produces a lot of hand shock (a typical bow) looses a great deal of its efficiency by diverting energy from the arrow to the archer. A bow with a smooth release transmits energy to the arrow very efficiently, thereby allowing greater speed and penetration. It is quite possible for an efficient 35 pound bow to do more damage than an inefficient 50 pound bow. This is just another reason why you should by the best quality equipment you can afford--and try it out before buying it.

Another factor are the arrows. Most arrows are splined to within about 5-6 pounds, however in practice a lot of arrows may very by considerably more. This will definitely affect your accuracy, and possibly your penetration. A few perfectionists in the SCA spline within one pound. This gives a much closer grouping, and much greater pinpoint accuracy. Further, tips and shafts can very significantly in the amount they weight. Again, a properly splined batch might vary as much as 7o grams from one another-and so effect your accuracy. The heavier ones are going to hit lower and slower, the lighter ones will be higher and faster. Perfectionists allow only a 10 gram variations among arrows. The more consistent the arrow, the tighter and more accurate the grouping. The lighter the arrow, the further it will fly.

My husband has a variety of arrows. He has aluminum and wooden shafts, both with feather fletching. The arrows he has by a master fletcher are reproductions of the Mary Rose arrows. They fly sweet! While shooting at the clout shoot at last Pennsic, he was amazed to discover he was putting them to the 150 yard target, not the 100 as he was trying. I will be happy to provide the name of our fletcher (he does mail order) to any interested archer. At fifty dollars the dozen, they are very reasonably priced arrows.

This are some of the basic things SCA archers can consider when buying equipment: good equipment is a joy to use, and makes learning easier. If you want to get really into archery, custom made pre-stressed bows and other wonders await. (A custom made bow is not just one you special order, it is fit to your personal measurements and shooting style. It is designed to maximize your shooting, no one Else's)

Yours in service to archery
Awilda Halfdane
bright hills, atlantia


It isn't hard to find the term spline if you do any reading on the Middle Ages.  I can provide as many references as you want
.......................................................

Traditional archers always referred to arrow stiffness testing as spline testing. And, why not?  The term goes back to the middle ages.

Then in the mid 1960s Allen invented the block and tackle shooter.  It's ability to reduce the actual hold weight attracted a whole new group into the arrow shooting ranks.
Unfortunately, very few of these new comers were interested in archery tradition or vernacular, just the enjoyment of shooting arrows.... 
Someone around then, not knowing or careing about the history of the term, thought that "spline" was a missprint and started using the term "spine".

So, "Spline" has been bastardized into "Spine"....

Use whatever vernacular you want.... Only understand what is actually the correct term..

Funny this is one of my pet peeves too.

Take Care,

Steve
« Last Edit: March 17, 2010, 07:56:24 am by Steve Cover »
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Offline recurve shooter

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Re: trad versus primitive
« Reply #51 on: March 17, 2010, 10:58:58 am »
lol ive noticed you argueing that point for about as long as youve been on this forum.  ;D
lets just shoot it

Offline Hillbilly

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Re: trad versus primitive
« Reply #52 on: March 17, 2010, 11:08:13 am »
Verily and forsooth. :)
Smoky Mountains, NC

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Progress might have been all right once but it's gone on for far too long.

Offline Justin Snyder

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Re: trad versus primitive
« Reply #53 on: March 17, 2010, 11:28:33 am »
Yep, the exact same argument. I have a dead horse, anyone want to beat it. How about we argue the correct spelling of the color grey/gray.
Everything happens for a reason, sometimes the reason is you made a bad decision.


SW Utah

Offline DanaM

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Re: trad versus primitive
« Reply #54 on: March 17, 2010, 11:47:21 am »
Yep, the exact same argument. I have a dead horse, anyone want to beat it. How about we argue the correct spelling of the color grey/gray.

Heck ya Justin I will take a few whacks at dat horse ;D
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Offline Kegan

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Re: trad versus primitive
« Reply #55 on: March 17, 2010, 02:35:53 pm »
That horse should be nice and tender by the time it gets to the glue factory... or barbecue ;)

Offline El Destructo

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Re: trad versus primitive
« Reply #56 on: March 17, 2010, 03:47:36 pm »
You ever eaten beaten Equine....ain't too bad....tastes better than Beef....so just keep whackin dat Mare....and We can all have some Tasty B-B-Q....... >:D
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Offline mullet

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Re: trad versus primitive
« Reply #57 on: March 17, 2010, 06:16:03 pm »
 Crap! I thought he was on Vacation or something? ???
Lakeland, Florida
 If you have to pull the trigger, is it really archery?

Offline HoBow

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Re: trad versus primitive
« Reply #58 on: March 17, 2010, 06:33:04 pm »
I have some horse leather and its the best leather I've ever played with. You guys beat the horse and I'll tan it ;D
Jeff Utley- Atlanta GA

Offline Steve Cover

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Re: trad versus primitive
« Reply #59 on: March 17, 2010, 06:58:13 pm »
lol ive noticed you argueing that point for about as long as youve been on this forum.  ;D

It actually isn't important what you call arrow stiffness testing as long as everyone is on the same page.

However, traditionally, dating back to the early middle ages, it has been spline.

Are you in doubt about this fact?

It does appear that I'm beating a dead horse, but, it one of my pet peeves.

If you don't care, let it go....

Best Wishes,

Steve
« Last Edit: March 17, 2010, 07:05:06 pm by Steve Cover »
FOR THOSE WHO HAVE FOUGHT FOR IT
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