Author Topic: Manitoba Chokecherry Sapling Stave (Read 14111 times)

zenmonkeyman · « **Reply #15 on:** December 30, 2009, 04:50:18 pm »

Thanks for the input guys! Stoker, there's no better place in north america to hunt black bears than near RMNP. A farmer near Sandy Lake shot one that would have been the world record had he shot it legally, the rug was something like 9 ft. Wodpow, that is some good food for thought. I'll try to slow down, but mostly I'm just going to pray that I don't put you into "I told you so territory"... Plenty of chokecherries where this one came from! That said, I realized last night that there's no need to be pulling 40# or more while I'm still on the long string... Which leads me to my TOPIC FOR TODAY:

According to my half-assed research, Chokecherry sapwood is strong in tension but will take set in compression. The heartwood is strong in compression. My problem is that I'm running out of heartwood here. Refer to my hastily-drawn diagram: (But ignore my labelling, I somehow mislabelled sapwood and heartwood... D'OH!!)

The 1st row is the current cross-section of my stick at the fades and the tips.

The 2nd row is the projected cross-section should I continue my current tillering strategy. I may end up with sapwood on the belly, which is not ideal obviously.

The 3rd row displays option #1: Narrowing the stave, and preserving thickness that way. I'm worried I would be more likely to lift a splinter as per wodpow's warning if I leave it too thick and tiller the sides instead.

The 4th row is option #2: Bevelling the edges to eliminate some of the sapwood where it dips to its lowest point, leaving me more room to tiller the belly.

The 3rd option might be a combination of options 1 and 2, where I both narrow and bevel, which would result in more of a flattened D shape.

The 4th option, which I am reluctant to even put out there, is decrowning. Really don't want to do it for both level-of-difficulty reasons and aesthetic reasons.

What would you guys do?

Stoker · « **Reply #16 on:** December 30, 2009, 06:46:03 pm »

Hi Zen.. I'm leaning towards optain 2 on my bow.. I was told by a freind of mine NEVER take sap wood off of chokecherry
I'm thinking you would have to sinue back then..I still think you should let her dry out some more befor tillering to far..
Soon will be the time to collect some more wood The natives around here beleive that you get the best wood 3 days after the
the full moon in Febuary..I'm planning my attack have 3 or 4 spotted..
Thanks Leroy

Hojo · « **Reply #17 on:** December 30, 2009, 08:46:05 pm »

I'd consider a fifth option of narrowing the tension-strong back while keeping the compression-weak belly wood as wide as possible. This would be the opposite of what you have as the beveling option in your sketches.

Not sure which is right. I'll defer to those more experienced in working with saplings.

half eye · « **Reply #18 on:** December 30, 2009, 10:24:45 pm »

zenman
This is not exactly on the subject but might be helpfull when combined with your building plan. When I work with wood not fully dried here is a tip that helps the wood cells reach a stable equalibrium. After each session of working on the wood support it on both limb tips and hang a one gallon jug (milk container?) from a cord right in the middle of the grip. The 13 or so pounds doesn't seem like much and that is the whole idea. It is sort of like putting a person in traction....straighten things out with a litle weight over time.
The small weight will allow the freshly worked wood cells to normalize and (more importantly) will allow the wood to equalize the overall stress by itself, without any cell damage. I have been doing thing this on my last several bows and am beginning to really like it. It is not a big hassel...just take the jug off and work the bow a little, when your done put the jug back on and so on untill its a bow.
Even though my bow wood is vertical grain the system will straighten propeller twist, reflex etc by letting the wood compensate slowly. Before everybody wants to get out the tar and feathers....this is not how to get instant and permanent shape to a bow stave....but it will make for a stronger and longer lived bow in the end. If you try this while you are doing the other things you are wanting to do, it might help with some of the twisting and stress induced damage that otherwise might occure.
hope I explained this clearly....I find that so far it has helped my bow wood so far....FYI
half eye

Dauntless · « **Reply #19 on:** December 30, 2009, 10:43:08 pm »

I doubt the heartwood/sapwood difference will change much in this bow. You'll get all sapwood near the tips which is fine because they barely work. You'll get more heartwood in the working limbs as they'll be thicker.

zenmonkeyman · « **Reply #20 on:** December 30, 2009, 11:47:38 pm »

Well, without making a conscious decision, I started tillering the sides on a bevel. As I've been going, the sapwood visible on the sides has been diminishing and the heartwood increasing slightly. I currently have almost equal heartwood and sapwood on the sides, about 1/4" of each for most of the length of the bow. My fades have narrowed to about 1 1/4 (down from 1 1/2), and the bow overall has gotten skinnier. I'm about ready to put the short string on. I've got a bit more set, the tips are now about flush with the bottom of the handle. The edge knots that had me worried before have been tillered off.

Hojo, you definitely made me pause and think, but ultimately I decided to soldier on.

Half eye, this seems like good advice. If I could ask for a clarification to be sure I don't have this backwards, do I hang the bow belly down or belly up? I'm thinking belly down.

Thanks guys for the hints, tips, and general interest! I should be posting a brace shot soonish.

zenmonkeyman · « **Reply #21 on:** December 31, 2009, 02:59:38 am »

Got to here and decided to brace.

This is a low brace, just over 3" It looks like it's too stiff at the fades, but it started with quite a bit of reflex off the handle.

I started exercising, thinking I still had quite a way to go, until I realized I was at about 40# at 25"... I pulled to 45#, then, unadvisedly, to 50#, looked at the tape: 29". There's a hinge, and a stiff spot still. I'd also like to bring the string over, it's on the wrong side of the handle. But... No pops, cracks, or kapows!

AND, since I was planning on heat treating the belly anyways, I'm feeling pretty good about this. When I took it off the tree, it felt pretty spongy, going "Bunk" when before it had gone "*binggg*" Haha, greenish wood... $:-\$ Unstrung, lots of string follow, but corrects itself to moderate set.

I can hardly believe how little wood is left, and how light it is. I don't know if it weighs half of what the 40# red oak board weighs. Anyways, tomorrow it will be heat gun and horn overlay time. Wish me luck!

half eye · « **Reply #22 on:** December 31, 2009, 09:14:19 am »

You are most correct ...oh wise one

belly down. By the way I dont exactly know what you were looking for....but damned if that dont look like a bow to me!!!!
half eye

Dauntless · « **Reply #23 on:** December 31, 2009, 02:46:28 pm »

You really shouldn't be working the bow so green like this. The set you are creating won't be fully removed by heat treating. I just hope you don't have any chrysals (compression fractures); they form a lot easier on unseasoned wood.

Also the set you get immediately after unstringing is the set that counts.

zenmonkeyman · « **Reply #24 on:** December 31, 2009, 03:05:55 pm »

Thanks, half eye!

Dauntless, you and everybody else are right, I know I shouldn't be working this stick yet. I crossed the line when I pulled it that last pull last night to 50#, I just hope I haven't damaged it too bad. I panicked when I realized how close I was to weight and I still needed some tuning, so I did the dumb thing. I'm going to heat treat today, clamp it to a form, and leave it alone for a while.

zenmonkeyman · « **Reply #25 on:** January 01, 2010, 06:40:23 pm »

OK, I may as well own up here... *hangs head in shame*

I considered allowing this thread to fade into the distance, but I don't want to create one more thread that dead-ends without some closure. I resolve to write no mystery threads!!!

I wrecked it. That last tug to 50# did indeed fret the limbs in *several* places. Right through the heartwood and into the sapwood. I apologize to the forest for killing a 30+ yr old tree. Thankfully, I learned a great deal in the process. During a full day of moping and crustiness, I managed some brief interludes of rational thought, and here are some of my conclusions. I'm going to start with

What I think I did right:

Roughing out the stave almost immediately after harvesting, laying out the limbs, tapering, and floor tillering within a few days. I eliminated excess wood pulling the stave in all directions, making the blank easily clampable and controllable. I shellacked the ends and the back, and had zero problems with checking. I wouldn't hesitate to do it again. Laying out a gradual taper from the fades to the tips. I believe my final width of 1 1/4" at the fades is about right.

What I think I did wrong:

Dispensing with patience. Duh. Feel free to chime in with well-deserved I-told-you-so's. I want you all to know that I knew you were speaking wisdom, but chose to risk disaster anyways. But also, I think I cut the stave too short. My bevelled flatbow design was probably not optimal, even if I think it looks cool.

Not heat-treating before bracing. Not cutting more than 1 stave.

What I will do differently for the next one:

"Patience, Grasshopper". Design a bend-through handle if a short bow is desired. Make and use a hot-box if patience is unbearable. Heat-treat early. Go with more of an elliptical profile. (I think I will maintain a flat belly, but curve gently into it instead of tillering a sharp bevel, and since this one failed in compression, I will err on the side of too much heartwood rather than too much sapwood.) Finally, I think I will be better prepared for the point at which the tillering changes from weight-coming-off-slowly to weight-coming-off-way-too-fast.

Thanks for the looks and support, and especially the input.

Anybody know of any bow wood in or near Regina?

half eye · « **Reply #26 on:** January 01, 2010, 06:58:58 pm »

Personally, I learn more from what goes wrong than what goes right....only difference between you and me is I broke a LOT more sticks than you have

half eye

zenmonkeyman · « **Reply #27 on:** January 02, 2010, 02:36:23 am »

Thanks, half eye, you're a generous and knowledgeable spirit and a credit to the forum. I ain't about to quit now, in fact I have a buddy talked into going on a tour of his bush property to find a new stave tomorrow.

It took me a day to regroup.

scp · « **Reply #28 on:** January 02, 2010, 05:27:50 pm »

Quote from: zenmonkeyman on January 01, 2010, 06:40:23 pm

What I think I did wrong:
Dispensing with patience. Duh. Feel free to chime in with well-deserved I-told-you-so's. I want you all to know that I knew you were speaking wisdom, but chose to risk disaster anyways. But also, I think I cut the stave too short. My bevelled flatbow design was probably not optimal, even if I think it looks cool. Not heat-treating before bracing. Not cutting more than 1 stave.

Been there, done that. I usually work on over a dozen bows at once. That way I can wait for some bows dry for several weeks while I work on others. IMHO you are supposed to heat treat well seasoned bows. I have no qualms about decrowning. If we can make bows from plain sawn boards, we can decrown all kinds of wood. If things do not work out, we can always back it. So long as we have enough patience not to pull the bow too much, way too early. Such a wisdom is hard earned. Let's be grateful.

zenmonkeyman · « **Reply #29 on:** January 02, 2010, 11:23:37 pm »

Well, I cut 5, 3 are pretty good and 2 are unrealistically challenging. 2 should be good for 2 staves each. I was hoping for some variety, but they're all chokecherry again. The best tree of the bunch is the one I spared to help the bears manufacture more black, pitty poop next year.

Darn, I wished I'd spied it 1st! I also have a nice deflex/reflex, hopefully it isn't too short. I think I'll rough and clamp 2 or 3 staves, and then build a hotbox. It's gonna be a good year.

Primitive Archer