edge, bias, flat grains... and backed bows? ? ?

[hedgeapple]

I've searched and read every post on edge, bias and flat grain orientation I can find.  Jawge's site was one of the first places I checked.  I'm a visual learner, so I haven't found many photos to illustrate these.  I think I get it, but I want to be sure.  So, I created these images as a simple way to ask, "Am I correct?"

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[sailordad]

dont know about the other tow,but that top one i believe is called "quarter sawn"

[hedgeapple]

Sailordad, I believe you're correct.  In my searches I've seen the term "end cut" and thought they were probably the same thing.  I can change the name easily enough, when others chime in to correct me and/or agree with me. 

[hedgeapple]

How's this:


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[hedgeapple]

Thanks Scott, now I know what rift sawn and plain sawn are. 

[George Tsoukalas]

There's a couple of different schemes for naming. Quarter(edge ringed) sawn, rift sawn (bias cut), flat (plain) sawn are the cuts and all will make a bow. Quarter sawn needs to have a straight edge grain tip to tip. Quarter and rift sawn can have a couple of violations per limb where the edge grain goes back to belly. Backing increases the no. of violations allowed. Jawge

[half eye]

hedgeapple,
       Your terminology is correct. I would like to add one thing so you don't get taken in by somebody if you go looking for a "rift" sawn board. Your top drawing is quartersawn (but the guys who actually do the cutting call that "fully-quartersawn") your drawing of rift sawn is a proper term but the sawyers actually call that quarter-sawn....as opposed to fully-quartersawn)
       Your terminology is spot on when talking to suppliers but please be aware that if you talk to a sawyer to get some wood specify "fully quartersawn", if that is what you are after.
       I make a lot of bows from this type of wood and just wanted to give you a heads-up. Hope I didn't stir the mud up.....
half eye

[hedgeapple]

Thanks Jawge and half eye,  Since I'm in the ball park with my terminology here are the real questions: If I were to use hickory backing on say osage would all of these combinations work?  Would some combinations be better?  Of course run offs and run ups would need to be concidered.  If I'm attempting to chase a ring on osage and nicked a ring and wanted to back it, then it would most be technically a flat edge, plain sawn, piece of wood, correct?  Is the integrity of the backing more important (few to no run offs) more important than the belly wood, given of course that the belly wood could handle the compression of the backing?

I would think that flat edge (plain sawn)backed with straight edge (quarter sawn) would give one of the strongest combinations.

 

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[akila]

The backing is verry important....and  she must be perfect...straight grain, becose she dose all the tension work....

[half eye]

I agree with akila completely. My experience is that a fully quartersawn backing will make a lot of problems go completely away. For example if you have a rift sawn main bow with the grain on a 45 dgree angle that bow would probably fail, sooner or later but a 1/4 to 3/8 backing of fully quartersawn (verticle grain) will make a sweet shooter and will allow you to "glue in" reflex etc. by letting it take the extra tension that your main bow might not be able to handle.

One other thing about these quartersawn "backers" you can make a real nice child's bow by glueing two (or 3) of them together in a form in a big hurry. They will shoot well for the kid and if they run into any "kid type" problems like car doors etc. you can make a new one pdq. Three layers glued up into a reflex/deflex design can make a solid 45# with no problem what so ever.

For what it might be worth.
half eye

[TBod]

half eye

When you say vertical grain you mean vertical growth rings or? The grain as I understood it goes at right angle to the growth rings. The lines on the drawings above is growth rings and not grain.

Vertical growth rings, fully quarter sawn = horizontal grain

I'm confused..

[Tom Leemans]

Remember also that pin knots will run pretty much perpendicular to the rings in the grain on quarter sawn wood. If you can't totally avoid pin knots, then they need to be oriented well away from the surface of your wood. It's best if they're not there in the first place.

[half eye]

Tbod and all,
       Sorry for the confussion on terminology I was referring to orientation of growth-rings in my answer....my growth rings are perpendicular to the back and belly.
half eye

[TBod]

Thanks half eye!

Not confused anymore