New Year Shooting at the Medieval Butts

[Jaro]

I would try society of archery antiquities. They have forum and he is member there.
There is rather comprehensive info on earthworks preserved until victorian /or pre victorian era in Hardy´s longbow, altough he does not necessarily writes about the size etc.
One of the main problems was actually maintenance so they were eventually discarded in favor of lighte and portable targets.

Jaro

[Dane]

Thank you, Jaro, for the lead. I will see what comes of it.

I find it frustrating that the warbow folks seem such a closed society. You (not you Jaro, I mean in general) seem so unwelcoming of "outsiders." It seems to me war bow shooters and scholars would be very happy to see a medieval earthen butt constructed anywhere, and perhaps there are none in the world? Or, no one really knows much about the dimensions of such substantial works?

Maintenance should not be an issue at the site I will be using.

Dane

[Jaro]

Dane, I dont think that warbow shooters are closed comunity, but constant influx of idiots can make people edgy. I recall myslef some 10 years ago when I came to this very exact forum - which at the time was far less politically correct, with questions about bows and was told  "f**k o**, read this, this and this and THEN return to ask. There is awfull lot of research and work published in couple of last years on the subject of warbows and certain things have became established fact eg - median weight of bows on MR - which is something which cannot really be much disputed in the light of what replicas in decent wood do. Yet every once a while comes an individual .........
You see where I m comming. Also, there is steady harrasment from a group of people who cannot do it themselves, yet they dont hesitate to have opinion on everything as if they do.

Jaro

[Marc St Louis]

Dane, I dont think that warbow shooters are closed comunity, but constant influx of idiots can make people edgy.

I recall myslef some 10 years ago when I came to this very exact forum - which at the time was far less politically correct, with questions about bows and was told  "f**k o**, read this, this and this and THEN return to ask.

You see where I m comming. Also, there is steady harrasment from a group of people who cannot do it themselves, yet they dont hesitate to have opinion on everything as if they do.

Jaro

I remember when you first came to the PA message board and I don't remember that Jaroslav.  Who told you that?

[Jaro]

That I dont remeber either. I remeber you and Rod being most helpfull though - even though my english was really bad at the time 

Jaro

[mullet]

 I remember, Jaro, That's when I first came here from PaleoPlanet. I met you over there. It is when the site almost became non-existant, Marc. But what I was going to ask, Rod, is, can you guy's shoot bows in Meets that are not English longbows? It seems that if anybody even mentions a bow that is not in the shape of a walking stick then everybody gets their shorts in a wad.
  The 3-D shoots over here are fun. Walk through the woods with 20 targets set out at different distances. Usually set in hunting situations and shootin groups at a fun, leisurely pace. eat lunch and do it again. Then shoot another 20 rounds the next day for a total score and trophy's and auctions and raffle drawings for targets and archery gear.
   Are the shoots in England structured different?, because it is hard to tell with the conversation on the Warbow Posts. It sounds like a lot of bickering.
 
  I'm not trying to offend anybody, but I was just curious if you can shoot recurves, horsebows, etc., or if you guy's have stringent rules against that.

[Dane]

Dane, I dont think that warbow shooters are closed comunity, but constant influx of idiots can make people edgy. I recall myslef some 10 years ago when I came to this very exact forum - which at the time was far less politically correct, with questions about bows and was told  "f**k o**, read this, this and this and THEN return to ask. There is awfull lot of research and work published in couple of last years on the subject of warbows and certain things have became established fact eg - median weight of bows on MR - which is something which cannot really be much disputed in the light of what replicas in decent wood do. Yet every once a while comes an individual .........
You see where I m comming. Also, there is steady harrasment from a group of people who cannot do it themselves, yet they dont hesitate to have opinion on everything as if they do.

Jaro

Well, Jaro, I have noticed that certain individuals do like to do the things you suggest. I have always thought the best way to deal with that is to ignore them and they will simply go away. Tempers tend to run high around here, though, and when the right buttons are pushed, the sparks fly. Napoleon was dead wrong when he called England a nation of shopkeepers.

I will follow your lead, again, thank you for that, and see what happens. I may even try building a high-poundage yew d bow one day. I have some excellent yew, but am not touching it or even thinking about doing so until I am ready. Wasting it would be criminal.

Dane

[Jaro]

Not to speak for the Rod, but he did his own fair deal of 3d shooting with hickory flatbow and I have sold some nice ash flatbows for 3d to england.

Anyway Dane - I have always thought that passive position is actually worst one of all. It does not deters the agresor, it will always only encourage him.

"Napoleon was dead wrong when he called England a nation of shopkeepers."  - Churchill on the other side called Itally "the soft underbelly of the europe" - words he lived to regret.  - Which only tells us that even great men can be dead wrong sometimes.

J.

[Rod]

Eddie,
I would have to check the current rules, but if you are asking where heavy bows could be shot, then as I mentioned earlier, there is nothing in NFAS rules to prevent a heavy bow being shot at instinctively at unmarked distance 3D's as the rules stand.
There is only a prohibition on exceeding 300fps which they are not likely to do.
Issues might forseeably arise from there being objections in the case of unsafe shooting or excessive damage to 3D's, but the former applies to all archers and the latter also to compound bows.

In the BLBS which is specifically intended to preserve lawn archery as it was practised in the 19th and early 20thC, there is a limit on draw-weight of 70lb, I believe.

In GNAS, without checking the rules, I believe it may be the same.

Likewise in EFAA, which is primarily marked distance field shooting.

If you are asking what other styles can be shot, in NFAS unmarked distance field shooting, pretty much what you please, though if there is no class for it you may find yourself shooting in a "superior" bow class since most rules are written to exclude a perceived advantage in equipment, not to exclude what might be perceived as a disadvantage.

A lot of folks shoot for fun without being too competitive, but in all classes there is at least a small  competitive element, even in PV (primitive) which only became a class of its own quite recently.
Before this I had shot a primitive bow in a variety of "superior" bow classes.

The only thing, perhaps, that prevents anyone from shooting a heavy bow under the existing rules might be a reluctance to see the scores published.
Which if the case is odd, since many of the better longbow field shooters are not afraid of comparison with other bow classes and in fact sometimes post scores that are closer than might be expected on the day to the winning hi-tech bow.

BLBS is primarily two way shooting, Target and Clout, though under the auspices of Hugh Soar there is a limited amount of heavy bow shooting for distance.

In GNAS which is affiliated to FITA (who do not recognise the Longbow*) the choice of bow styles is more limited, being essentially Olympic recurve, Compound Unlimited, Barebow and the Longbow.
Target shooting is their main interest, with some Field archery, Clout, and rarely Flight and Popinjay.
They also shoot indoors in the winter !
Compound Limited (finger release) may now only be shot in GNAS field archery, no longer inTarget.

EFAA is IFAA affiliated  and they tend to shoot paper faces at marked distance set in cleared lanes (and since the IFAA also does not recognise the Longbow*) I tend not to think about them too much.

* The Longbow being what you blokes eccentrically call an ELB. Whereas we call an American longbow an AFB. or sometimes a longbow.

Rod.

Tomahtoe, tomayto, let's call the whole thing off....   

[Dane]

Not to speak for the Rod, but he did his own fair deal of 3d shooting with hickory flatbow and I have sold some nice ash flatbows for 3d to england.

Anyway Dane - I have always thought that passive position is actually worst one of all. It does not deters the agresor, it will always only encourage him.

"Napoleon was dead wrong when he called England a nation of shopkeepers."  - Churchill on the other side called Itally "the soft underbelly of the europe" - words he lived to regret.  - Which only tells us that even great men can be dead wrong sometimes.

J.

Probably the fantastic style of the Italians and their love of life lulled him into forgetting that Italy is from where the Romans sprang

Seriously though, if the entire board ignores and shuns troublemakers, they will have no voice and will fade from view, if not as quickly as you like. Folks who thrive on confrontation will drain you and ruin it for everyone else. My opinion, though.

Have a care, and good luck with the new year.

Dane

 

[mullet]

 Thanks, Rod, that clears up a lot. Now I have to ask, what is a popinjay and a clout shoot?

[CraigMBeckett]

Mullet,

from Wikipedia

"The format and rules of popinjay given below are drawn from those defined for the United Kingdom by the Grand National Archery Society. The specific rules are given in the GNAS Rules of Shooting 2006, rules 1000 to 1006. (GNAS, 2006)

The object of popinjay is to knock artificial birds off their perches. The perches are cross-pieces on top of a 90-foot (27 m) mast. The "cock" (the largest bird) is set on the top cross piece. Four smaller "hens" are set on the next crosspiece down. Two dozen or so "chicks" (the smallest birds) are set on the lower cross pieces. (GNAS, 2006 - rule 1000)

The archer stands near the base of the mast and shoots arrows upwards at the birds. (GNAS, 2006 - rule 1000) The arrows are tipped with rubber blunts rather than sharp points. The blunts are between 0.75 inches (19 mm) and 1-inch (25 mm) in diameter. (GNAS, 2006 - rule 1001)

Points are scored for each bird knocked off. Typically, the archer scores 5 points for the cock, 3 points for a hen and 1 point for a chick. (GNAS, 2006 - rule 1004)"

The original form used live birds.

As for clout shooting: again from Wikipedia

Clout is a form of archery in which archers shoot arrows at a flag (known as "the Clout") from a relatively long distance and score points depending on how close each arrow lands to the flag.

Scoring zones are defined by maximum radii from the flag pole. Each arrow scores points depending on which scoring zone it enters the ground in. An arrow embedded in the flag pole is counted as being in the highest scoring zone. If an arrow is laying on the ground, it is considered to be in the scoring zone in which its point lies.

The scoring zones may be marked on the ground. Where this is not practical, a non-stretch rope or chain marked with the radii of the scoring zones is attached to the flag pole and swept around it to determine which arrows are in which zones.

A designated person collects the arrows in each zone, sorts them into sets, and lays them on the ground. Each archer in turn points to his or her arrows and calls out the scores in descending order.

A single clout round consists of three dozen arrows, shot in ends of 6 arrows. Tournaments typically consist of a double clout round, in which a total of six dozen arrows is shot.

There are variations to the rules for different archery  bodies, (GNAS, BL-BS, FITA, and Archery Australia).

Craig.

[mullet]

 Thanks, Craig. The popinjay sounds like fun. I might have to talk to the guy's in the club over here.

[Loki]

http://freespace.virgin.net/neil.morris1/popinjay.html

[Rod]

Eddie,

Popinjay is still quite popular in Belgium and not only do they have masts and a shelter from the falling shafts, but sometimes even have a bar attached for refreshment.

Here the popinjay is traditionally shot each year at a location where a "bird" is mounted on the church tower and they shoot to "Ding the doo."

There was an improvised popinjay at the BLBS Stoke D'Abernon Clout a few years ago, which was a military mobile mast on a small trailer with the rack for two popinjays (plastic crow decoys) fixed to the top.
It took what seemed like forever to winding it up and down (90 feet) and it was heavy work.

This did not deter FRF from showing off by shooting the bird and then turning to take a bow, at which moment the bird bounced off his head.
But no one had a camera ready. That would have been one popular image, I imagine Ted at The Glade might even have devoted a full page to it.

Clout is essentially derived from practice for holding a group with a long high trajectory shot, not a low trajectory as is currently the rule for Olympic Recurves and Compounds in GNAS competition, which specifies a low trajectory for these bows for reasons of safety.
It would be less simple, but more in keeping with the spirit of clout shooting perhaps, to place an upper limit on their draw weight and /or arrowspeed, a lower limit on their arrow weight and/or specify a very forward of centre point of balance for the shafts.
Then and only then would they also be truly clout shooting.

Or let them have their own competition with a small (36") boss as is employed at the Meriden Clout in BLBS shooting and call it "Longer Target Shooting".

Rod.