Non-Primitive Bow Materials

[makenzie71]

Jamie used to post a few stone bows every now and then.  There have been a few others posted also over the years. If we had a separate category for truly "primitive" as you call it, we would have no bows to choose from way to often.

Sadly, you are correct.  I would still love to see some dedication to real primitive bows.

We aren't trying to be elitists. Most of us just have absolutely no desire to sort through 10 fiberglass bows to look at the wood bows. If we wanted to see the FG stuff I would go to those sites.

I also understand this, but it would be nice if people who wanted to post hybrid bows wouldn't be "shunned", as it were.  I mean, I'm still going to post my 80%+ wood bows here in this section...anything else I'll post in the "anything else" section (which is why we have that section, I believe...I saw pulleys in there earlier today).  Then there's just crazy things like my bronze backed bow (another project I'm working on)...where will I be able to post that? lol

I do repeat my earlier question, though:  I have found no other forums as dedicated to bowyery as this one while being as active and having as many friendly members.  I would appreciate links.

[Shadow Walker]

Hipocracy is the cornerstone of human nature!
Unfortunately, there will probably never be a " strictly primitive " category, because those that create strictly primitive gear are greatly outnumered.
Instead of seeing a seperate category for strictly primitive gear as being a logical and interesting inclusion to "primitive archer", it seems to be met with fierce opposition.
There's nothing threatening or difficult about it. It doesn't need to be "policed". The criteria isn't that difficult to comprehend. If you were living as your ancestors did, Could you build that bow using nothing but natural materials?
No one is suggesting outlawing the use of modern power tools or adhesives.Just that those who do create strictly primitive, a.k.a. all natural equiptment should be afforded the same chance as those who build their bows with the best exotic woods money can buy, and the strongest commercially available glues.
They are all beautiful creations on this site, there's no denying that. And the craftmanship is unsurpassed! But,,, let's be realistic,,  I am at a failure to comprehend why there is such a problem with this concept??
I have read many threads on this forum lately, where difference of opinion, or more accurately,"I'm right and you're wrong" has turned into small battles that have concluded in rudeness and even name calling.
This is happening because people can't see past their own noses to see the point of others. (I'm not excluding myself here, there are many times that I've not been able to see past my own nose,,,but then, my nose is exceptionally long!
The whole problem with this is that it stands in the way of natural, healthy progression.
If we were as eager to bend as well as the bows we create instead of snapping back like the same bows,,,,Hmmmm, endless possibilities!
Personally I believe a seperate category for all natural bows would inspire more of us to try new things and subsequently, learn a lot more!

[Swamp Bow]

Personally I believe a seperate category for all natural bows would inspire more of us to try new things and subsequently, learn a lot more!

Well said, I agree completely.

Swamp

[Justin Snyder]

Personally I believe a seperate category for all natural bows would inspire more of us to try new things and subsequently, learn a lot more!

Well said, I agree completely.

Swamp

The really sad part of this conversation is that when one of these stone built bows is posted, it usually gets very few votes. In stead people vote for the pretty one. I suggest that if you feel strongly about the stone bows you vote for them not the other. I remember when Jamie posted one built by his 13 year old with nothing but stone tools. It got about 4 votes out of 100.

  If it adds performance it is out.

Sinew adds performance....you can't call it a self backed bow but it should still be considered ok since its been in use for thousands of years

-Ky
[/quote]
Sinew is natural, the current conversation doesn't apply.

[adb]

Besides all wood "primitive" bows, both self & laminate, I also make FG R/D bows... I just don't post any of them here.

[HoBow]

I never understood the argument that if the Indians had "XXX" they would have used it. The whole point of going primative, wherever you draw the line, is to get away from some of the newer technology and appreciate how the ancestors crafted...at least in my opinion.

[kayakfisher]

I admit that I had to look up phenolic,Phenolic sheet is usually made by impregnating a core material, such as paper or fabric, with the resin and then catalyzing it.

personally I prefer the look of natural wood or organic material in my bows,I have seen this same argument in the flyfishing world and trout parks.A flie is constructed on a single point hook with fur feathers or chenille .Then somebody invented the gummy minnow plastic/rubber bodied minnow on a single point hook,it didn't set to well ! Especial in our trout parks ,the sign said Flyfishing only,but I should be able to use my rubber bodied/plastic baits in your fishing hole. I have seen the conservation agents right a lot of citations for that to. Primitive Archery,wood bows ,but I should be able to use plastic in my bows to,I have heard people run others down for using duct tape to back a bow ,fiberglass tape etc, but then again we use plastic knocks ,carbon fiber arrows,vinyl fletches ,synthetic coatings and adhesives.
                             ( I like my all wood rawhide backed bows with natural knock overlays and risers or wood bamboo backed bows)
                                                            Dennis

[Shadow Walker]

"The really sad part of this conversation is that when one of these stone built bows is posted, it usually gets very few votes. In stead people vote for the pretty one. I suggest that if you feel strongly about the stone bows you vote for them not the other. I remember when Jamie posted one built by his 13 year old with nothing but stone tools. It got about 4 votes out of 100."


This only proves my point!! " that those who do create strictly primitive, a.k.a. all natural equiptment should be afforded the same chance as those who build their bows with the best exotic woods money can buy, and the strongest commercially available glues."
 All natural bows don't have to made using just a stone! I'm sure the Mongolians used more than just a stone to construct those wonderful composite bows! I'm not referring to just "stone age" weapons!
I'm reffering to bows that are made "All Natural!". No epoxy glues on laminates ect.!
Nothing wrong with using the finest woods you can import or using Urac, titebond ect, But it is a modern construction and should be judged seperate from all natural bows. You can't compare the two categories. The "pretty bow will always win! I love the bows I see on this site, they are beautiful,
But!! where do the boweyers who take the extra initiative to create bows from all natural materials go to get any credit for what they do if they can't compete with the modern construction bows on "PrimitiveArchery? because everyone likes the "pretty" bows?

[OldBow]

I get a kick out of advise to use super glue to seal up cracks. but it works!
BTW, I have sinew being sent to me from Alaska from the moose I helped get back to the cabin/airstrip.
Pic is of processing moose in a snow storm:

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[Shadow Walker]

I never understood the argument that if the Indians had "XXX" they would have used it. The whole point of going primative, wherever you draw the line, is to get away from some of the newer technology and appreciate how the ancestors crafted...at least in my opinion.

If they did have it and used it, then it would be primitive to us, but they didn't, so it isn't.
And YES!! learning and respecting the way of our ancestors is a most noble goal!
So much has been lost! Invaluable information that can never be retrieved again. Whole races whose artistry and even religions and languages have been destroyed. O.K, I'm going to stop now, I'm getting into an area that is all too personal to me. (not to mention, that it"s bordering on becoming politcal, and we don't want to go there!)

[Swamp Bow]

The really sad part of this conversation is that when one of these stone built bows is posted, it usually gets very few votes. In stead people vote for the pretty one. I suggest that if you feel strongly about the stone bows you vote for them not the other. I remember when Jamie posted one built by his 13 year old with nothing but stone tools. It got about 4 votes out of 100.

I won't argue with that.  I'm still really new here, so I really haven't gotten into BOM other than to go through past winners to see what is out there.  I've wanted to see what I was getting into and get educated before casting votes.  A separate category might help with that, it might help point out that a bow was made the "hard" way.  If there are that few entries, perhaps a Primitive Semiannual Bow (PSB?) would work until more people started making more bows that fit.  Thank you for pointing out that bow, it's great.  The other problem is that until 2-3 months ago, I would not have understood what i was looking at (perhaps I still don't and won't until I do it myself).  Special recognition such a BOM would certainly bring amazing bring work like that to more peoples attention, and get them to really understand.  I'm a potter, my passion is really crusty wood fired work (to look at), and historic reproductions of salt glazed Rhenish stoneware.  Many people look at my work and say "gee it's all brown or those are funny shapes?", it's my job to educate them or point them in the correct direction, when they come back it's like they see my work for the first time.

Again I know how much extra work it would be for the staff, but it would be nice.  Wishful thinking.   

Swamp

[Shadow Walker]

 "A separate category might help with that, it might help point out that a bow was made the "hard" way.  If there are that few entries, perhaps a Primitive Semiannual Bow (PSB?) would work until more people started making more bows that fit.  Thank you for pointing out that bow, it's great.  The other problem is that until 2-3 months ago, I would not have understood what i was looking at (perhaps I still don't and won't until I do it myself).  Special recognition such a BOM would certainly bring amazing bring work like that to more peoples attention, and get them to really understand. "

Another fine point!

[ricktrojanowski]

I look at the laminate bows different than self or naturally backed bows.  I still view them as organic, because they are not covered in FG, but I wouldn't be offended if there was something non organic in the handle or on the limb tips.  As long as it doesn't get carried away and the natural element doesn't get lost in the process.

[Swamp Bow]

I get a kick out of advise to use super glue to seal up cracks. but it works!
BTW, I have sinew being sent to me from Alaska from the moose I helped get back to the cabin/airstrip.
Pic is of processing moose in a snow storm:

Hi Oldbow, I'm not picking on ya, this is just a great example...

I look at that picture and first I think "Wow, that must have been an incredible experience!", I didn't even notice the bright blue poly tarp until later in the viewing.  I had an art professor (whom I might add became a dear friend), explain to me how he looks at a work of art.  He basically said the first thing he looks for is that "wow factor", and he reserves the right to use that wow factor as a reason for liking an art work.  It doesn't matter what the media, who, what, when, or where.  It could be dried cafeteria chocolate pudding that was finger painted on an old shoe.  It's got to move him first.  Then he goes though and analyzes the work.  When I look at a bow (or whatever) it has to make me say wow first, for whatever reason that may be.  It could be pretty, it could look like a meat maker, it could look like an artifact, it could be meticulous, or a myriad of other reasons.  It might even make me think I could actually build one of those.  Then I go through and look at the details.  If the maker used nothing but period tools, it often tends to put the piece in a higher category for me.  Keeping in mind sloppy work with period tools is still sloppy work and tight work with machinery is still tight work.  Now is a compound bow that someone engineered and manufactured down to the decimal place on their own any better than a well made home center board bow?  Not in my book, it isn't less of a bow either.  I'm still going to say "wow" even if I'm not a compound bow guy.  Then I look to see if the compound has a good job of cleaning up mill marks, is the color scheme nice, is it comfortable in the hand, etc.?  Is the board bow smoothed nicely, how is the tiller, will it last more than five shots?  But I think it would be unfair to compare the two.  Some people will always vote compound, there are more of them than traditional shooters (not on this site I expect).  So going back to your picture, very cool, "wow".  Now if it had been someone else (or you) who shot it with a NA bow, wearing a period kit (hunter, not the moose  ), being dressed out in a period shelter, using period tools, I would say "WOW!", even if it was a smaller moose.  I'd still feel that way even it it was a rabbit not a moose.  Now I'd bet "harvest of the month" would go to your moose, not the rabbit.  I expect many would just dismiss another dime a dozen rabbit unless they really understood what was so special about that rabbit, only a few would notice said rabbit book marked between moose.  Again not diminishing your hunt, not at all, that is the stuff of dreams.  With all due respect.

Swamp

[Shadow Walker]

Yeah, I noticed the blue tarp too. But mostly it reminded me of the year I spent living in the Yukon. ( Whitehorse ),  That was some beautiful country! I remember the northern lights looking so close,,,like you could just reach up and touch them! Man, that was some life experience! Thanks for the memories!!