Non-Primitive Bow Materials

[makenzie71]

When I first joined several years back we had an issue like this pop up around one of my bows...because I backed it in kevlar.  Of course it's not primitive, but at the time I was mostly just wanting to find a group of people to share my new hobby with.  Not to mention, that's all I had for a suitable backing.  I had a lot of people, including the mods and admins here, complain because the kevlar was modern and, thus, was not to be discussed on this forum.  These were all the same people who preached the use of band saws, hand planers, titebond III, etc.

Here's my beef with the situation:  I could care less about performance.  To me, performance is in the lumber, not the snot holding it together.  My .2 mil layer of kevlar barely held the grain down.  I don't have an issue with anyone using modern materials...modern materials are awesome, and you can not tell me for a second that the bowyers of centuries gone would still be using cat gut and fish spit had Titebond III been there.  To me, it's all about the lumber, and the people who claim that glass and Loctite and such are "sinful", per say, should start posting up their bows made with zero modern influence (not saying some of them haven't...I just haven't seen, nor searched, for them).

I love this forum and I love seeing the things people come up with, but I have a hard time looking at this as a competition, and, thus, find such rules a little hipocritical.  That's my opinion, though, not that anyone in particular asked for it.

[wolfsire]

This site and magazine are aspirational. 

IMO the general ethos should be this:  Don’t be too critical of any projects that are not 100% primitive, lest it be discouraging.  Rather, encourage and compliment that part that is primitive, even if it is only 5%.  The notion that someone’s project is not primitive enough to discuss here, when that is the direction someone is trying to head, is arbitrary elitism.  Conversely, don’t go out of your way to recommend non-primitive materials or technologies, unless they are asked for to compliment and make possible the primitive.  That diminishes the value placed on the primitive, but sometimes it is necessary.  For example, recommend a board if someone cannot reasonably cut down stave.  But don’t criticize a bow because it is a board.  Instead, applauded the tiller, etc.

Competitions are something else.  They have to be exclusive, not inclusive, sometimes, but not always, arbitrarily, otherwise the drive to win pushes you down the slippery slope, not just an accidental slide, away from that which is primitive.

[Badger]

   I think if we go back to the begining in what brough us all together it was basicaly about wood bows. There are plenty of sights available for those who build glass bows. Has nothing to do with elitism as much as it does just building all wood bows. The word primitive I don't believe was meant to mean stoneage neccessarily as much as it just means pre fiberglass to most of us. I have always loved wood bows but never had a real deep seated interest in primitive per say. I know many that feel like I do. Steve

[Shadow Walker]

Well, I'm really on the edge with this one. Particularly on the laminate aspect. I use hide glue for all my glue ups, wether it be attaching a handle, tip overlays and especially for laminating.  I have used epoxys in the past for laminates, but I never had as good results as using the hide glue (Just my personal experience and preference)
Epoxies (in my humble opinion) are not far from fiberglass. They are basically resin without the glass attached.
I think if wer'e talking primitive, the question we need to ask ourselves is "Could you build it if you were in the wild, using only what you could aquire from the wild."
In a survival situation, you won't find any epoxies.
Yet, having said that,my hipocracy shines through in the fact that I use Helsman's varnish to finish and protect my bows, and I have never made a primitive string yet. Although, in a survival situation, I probably wouldn't worry about the varnish, and we all know, there are primitive materials available in the wild to make strings from.
Although I can respect the fine craftmanship of the weapons being produced on this site,
I think there should be a category for those who go through the extra effort and details to create truly "primitive" equipment.

[makenzie71]

   I think if we go back to the begining in what brough us all together it was basicaly about wood bows. There are plenty of sights available for those who build glass bows. Has nothing to do with elitism as much as it does just building all wood bows. The word primitive I don't believe was meant to mean stoneage neccessarily as much as it just means pre fiberglass to most of us. I have always loved wood bows but never had a real deep seated interest in primitive per say. I know many that feel like I do. Steve

I agree with you more than not, but I did have a question:  Where are you finding these "plent of sites" concerning other varieties of bows?  There's some general hunting forums, and a few craftsy sites I've found, but nothing really dedicated toward glass/kevlar bows that I've seen.  I'm not talking about competition forums, though...just normal plain-jane people whipping stuff up in their spare time.  Of course I'll post all of my creations here (there wasn't an "anything else" section when I first joined I don't recall), but still I wonder.  I'm currently building a 160lb split beam fiberglass take-down that I will love to show off when done.

[The Gopher]

i agree with badger, the key word is WOOD.

[Marc St Louis]

First of all I don't know why anyone would want to use anything other than natural materials for making their bows.  In any case rule #3 is clear and as Steve said, there are plenty of other sites that like to talk about glass and carbon fiber

[makenzie71]

I think there should be a category for those who go through the extra effort and details to create truly "primitive" equipment.

I believe this is a WONDERFUL suggestion.

[makenzie71]

First of all I don't know why anyone would want to use anything other than natural materials for making their bows.  In any case rule #3 is clear and as Steve said, there are plenty of other sites that like to talk about glass and carbon fiber

#3 says no post-industrial materials yet we have no issues with titebond?  Playing devil's advocate, I suppose, since I don't care what's used in the way of glues...it's just that mentality that always bothers me.

[Dano]

I think some of you are making way more out of this than needs. Who is going to be the PRIMITIVE POLICE?

[PaulN/KS]

For those of us who have been progressing backwards in this hobby it can be a long and gradual path...
Many started with glass recurves in the 60's and 70's built by others and now we are whittling wooden bows of our own.
The fact that we use some power tools don't make the bows less "primitive"... the tools save us time, a commodity that some of us folks have less of these days.
For those who want to, dust off the old Hatchet Bow Challenge from MOJAM and build a bow with no bench,vise or other tools. Just the hatchet...
It is a real learning experiance and fun too. Oh, and BTW, cutting the strands to make the string with a hatchet is NOT that easy...

Don't try to catch a dropped hatchet... 

[Justin Snyder]

I think there should be a category for those who go through the extra effort and details to create truly "primitive" equipment.

I believe this is a WONDERFUL suggestion.

Jamie used to post a few stone bows every now and then.  There have been a few others posted also over the years. If we had a separate category for truly "primitive" as you call it, we would have no bows to choose from way to often.


I think Badger has explained the spirit of the law really well.  If it adds performance it is out. Modern glues have always been allowed because they don't add performance. Materials that are added to the back are meant to keep the bow from blowing so they should be natural.

We aren't trying to be elitists. Most of us just have absolutely no desire to sort through 10 fiberglass bows to look at the wood bows. If we wanted to see the FG stuff I would go to those sites.

[kylerprochaska]

  If it adds performance it is out.
[/quote]

Sinew adds performance....you can't call it a self backed bow but it should still be considered ok since its been in use for thousands of years

-Ky

[Okie]

Well let me jump in here since I am probably the one this is all about. I think Dano is right... way to much being made about this! As for the original post from Don, this is about phenolic in the handle ( non working part of the bow.) and epoxies that we use. Not backings..
I have no problem taking my bows to other sites, and I do most of the time. But I have really enjoyed being a part of the PA family, as much as I can anyway. I do have to say there is a lot of hypocrisy here though.

[kylerprochaska]

Okie1, I was really upset when they said your bow wasn't going to be the laminate BOM contest because of the handle laminations.  But Im really  glad to see it there now

-Ky