Author Topic: horn and sinew bow  (Read 13343 times)

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Shadow Walker

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horn and sinew bow
« on: November 16, 2009, 08:31:29 pm »
Well, I'm finally taking the leap1 I'm going to build a horn bow. In the June/July issue of P.A, there is an article on building the buffalo horn bow. In this article, it suggests that the wooden core of the bow can be substituted with horn. I have not heard of this before. I was wondering if any you experienced gentlemen know anything about it and can perhaps shed some light on the performance of such a bow?

Offline PatM

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Re: horn and sinew bow
« Reply #1 on: November 16, 2009, 09:25:30 pm »
Most if not all Native horn bows are just horn and sinew. I don't think there are any documented or collected specimens with a wood core.
 If you were to make belly strips and glue them to a horn core, you would basically be replicating an authentic bow. You may have the ability to glue in a bit more performance by using multiple layers. I'm not sure why you would do that unless there was absolutely no wood available.

 The description of the performance of these bows range from "out of this world"(Ed Scott) to "SLOW" (Tim Baker).
 I've never seen tests done by either camp which proves performance one way or the other.

Shadow Walker

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Re: horn and sinew bow
« Reply #2 on: November 16, 2009, 09:59:13 pm »
The mongolians,the huns and other eastern cultures used a wood core and they are reputed to be some of the fastest bows ever made. Perhaps that is more because of the extreme profile of the bow which causes more stress on the limbs. The buffalo horn bow in the P.A magazine was constructed with a wooden core. I never realized that authentic plains bows had no wooden core.
That's what's so great about this site, I learn something new every day!

Offline Dauntless

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Re: horn and sinew bow
« Reply #3 on: November 16, 2009, 10:26:30 pm »
I think even Tim Baker admitted horn bows were faster than self bows at draw weights higher than 60lbs and that with equal draw lengths.  Below that, the extra mass in the recurves slow things down although a 32" draw will shoot faster than the same weight 28" draw.

Ralph (RWelch) on another bow making forum is making a horn and sinew bow about 45" long.  He pretillered the horn core and tillered some by adding sinew strategically layer by layer.

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Offline medicinewheel

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Re: horn and sinew bow
« Reply #4 on: November 17, 2009, 03:18:23 am »
...
 The description of the performance of these bows range from "out of this world"(Ed Scott) to "SLOW" (Tim Baker).
...

Well, I have a feeling Tim Baker's opinion on hornbows in general is a rather biased one, claiming the straight-limbed hornbow - the one HE made! - shown in TBB4 to be the fastest hornbow he ever shot. Unfortunately that thing fell apart before being able to prove that to be true by chronograph! ...Aah, I see... 8) 8) 8)

...and MY biased opinion on Ed Scott's bow is that it for sure is an out of this world sexy little bow!!!
« Last Edit: November 17, 2009, 08:29:58 am by medicinewheel »
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Offline shikari

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Re: horn and sinew bow
« Reply #5 on: November 17, 2009, 11:33:35 am »
If you are making a hornbow stick to hide glue for the sinew if you use something like titebond,you are wasting your time/effort/horn.
Good luck.

Shadow Walker

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Re: horn and sinew bow
« Reply #6 on: November 17, 2009, 12:23:42 pm »
I've got a whole coffee can full of deer hide glue strips! I want this to be as close to authentic as possible. I have used hide glue a lot on wood, and, for me, at least, I won't use anything else!
I believe it will have a great impact on the over all performance of the bow.

Offline M-P

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Re: horn and sinew bow
« Reply #7 on: November 18, 2009, 10:54:19 pm »
ShadowWalker,   I have not made a native American style horn bow.   It's a project that's on my list though.   With respect, the author of the PA article makes it plain in his pamphlet that he recreated the method he uses.  (Which is another way of saying he made it up.)   His method results in some beautiful and  functional bows.   But, none of the horn bows I've seen described in museum collections have a wooden core.   The originals all appear to be one long piece of horn or two shorter pieces butted or overlapped at the handle.  Butted joints had a separate handle piece laid across the back of the joint.  Note-  the originals had a little set back at the handle.   The straight horn pieces will be pulled into a large reflex as the sinew dries.  When strung the result is the gull-winged profile so identified with the plains horse tribes.  My plan is to stick with the original construction method.   Two strips butted together over a short horn handle piece.  The originals were riveted!  Then the backs were sinewed heavily, using hide glue.  The nocks were almost always built up from sinew and glue.   Another note is the bows in the museum collections are listed as being made from sheep horn, elk antler and cow horn.  Buffalo horn bows were very rare?  I'll probably cheat and use either water buffalo or gemsbok horn strips as easier to obtain.

About bow performance;  I've seen references to another online group that includes Tim B., Karpowicz and others.  These guys are really uber geeks, focused the mechanical engineering side of bow making.   Some of their work is really cool and a help in understanding bow design, but millenia of experience show that a bows can be made without worrying about all that.  In fact Tim makes it plain in his writing that bows are trade offs.  You make a bow based on what you  will use it for.   Ultimate efficiency ( as an engine) is rarely the first desideratum.
Ron
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"There are three kinds of men. The one that learns by reading. The few who learn by observation. The rest of them have to pee on the electric fence for themselves."    Will Rogers

Shadow Walker

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Re: horn and sinew bow
« Reply #8 on: November 19, 2009, 12:06:31 am »
WOW! M-P, thanks for the input, that was very informative. I have some long steer horns coming so I'll use that for my bow. I'll cut them lenghtwise and not "around" the horn as was done in the article ( I think that would fail without a wooden core. )

Offline M-P

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Re: horn and sinew bow
« Reply #9 on: November 20, 2009, 12:18:35 pm »
One more thing.  Cow horn has a reputation for splitting easily.  I know I've had some problems with splitting even when using small pieces for arrow nock inserts, etc.  You might want to make sure the sinew backing wraps oveer the edge of the limbs.  I know that's standard construction for asian horn bows, and I've always assumed the overlap helped hold the back and belly lams together.    Ron
"A man should make his own arrows."   Omaha proverb   

"There are three kinds of men. The one that learns by reading. The few who learn by observation. The rest of them have to pee on the electric fence for themselves."    Will Rogers

Offline shikari

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Re: horn and sinew bow
« Reply #10 on: November 20, 2009, 02:39:34 pm »
I would strongly advise staying away from cow/steer horn in your bow making,I have experimented with it a lot and every piece has delaminated,by this I mean not at the glue lines but on the growth rings of the horn itself as the fibers are not fused together on cow horn as they are in buff or gemsbok.
Just my 2 cents.
Good luck
P.J.

Shadow Walker

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Re: horn and sinew bow
« Reply #11 on: November 20, 2009, 05:13:48 pm »
That's good to know. Alkl I have right now is cow horn so maybe I'de be better off using it on an asiatic type horse bow. That way I can wrap the whole bow in silk string to" bind" it.
I have found a site that sells water buffalo and gemsbok horn fairly reasonably priced.
It's called " boone trading company". I'll have to order some horn from them to make my plains style bow.  Thanks for the heads up guys! Cheers!

Offline shikari

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Re: horn and sinew bow
« Reply #12 on: November 20, 2009, 05:59:50 pm »
I make asiatic style horn bows only and cow horn definately is not suitable for them either,I bought my water buff horn from chisterine inc out of buffalo NewYork,and got  good horn and prices and would definately recomend them.