Author Topic: Zero string follow secrets?  (Read 49903 times)

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Offline George Tsoukalas

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Re: Zero string follow secrets?
« Reply #75 on: November 18, 2009, 12:55:09 am »
gmc,  I call it string follow only if  the bow, when it is unbraced, looks like it's  braced. It literally looks like the bow is braced.  Yes, I would call it set or  string follow when just unbraced. Yes, if you start with 2 inches of reflex and end up even you have a zero string follow bow (but 2 inches of set).  Jawge
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Offline Keenan

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Re: Zero string follow secrets?
« Reply #76 on: November 18, 2009, 02:07:24 am »
 Pat you are right, the limbs don't move to that degree. I used the analogy and was trying to keep it simple on the realm of not calculating string angle and other obvious variables..  Tim Baker and I were having a discusion once over a theory and he made a comment that I believe to be good advice. He said to see the results of someting, sometimes it helps to look at an exaggerated view.
  So for Gmc.  If we are looking into the effect of momentary displacement of the original limb position after unstringing the bow. Here are some thoughts.  We rarely see much dramatic change of limb position after unbracing a bow.  Average would probably fall in the one inch range if measured right after unbraced and then two hours later. Now considering that the average bow gains 3-4 lbs per inch of draw when strung, and even less from resting position to 1" off resting profile. Then the overall effect is probably very minimal. This can sometimes be a greater amount of change when sinew is involved.
  Now with these things in mind, one thing that I think the situation may indicate is, that if the amount of delayed return is greater then an inch, it could be an indication that the wood is very close to permenate damage to the cells. And this could become permanent "set" or fatigue of the tension wood. The factor becomes bigger when a bow is braced all day and shows a measureable amount of draw weight loss from when it was first strung.
« Last Edit: November 18, 2009, 02:29:49 am by Keenan »

Offline gmc

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Re: Zero string follow secrets?
« Reply #77 on: November 18, 2009, 06:55:58 am »
gmc,  I call it string follow only if  the bow, when it is unbraced, looks like it's  braced. It literally looks like the bow is braced.  Yes, I would call it set or  string follow when just unbraced. Yes, if you start with 2 inches of reflex and end up even you have a zero string follow bow (but 2 inches of set).  Jawge
Thanks Jawge.
Central Kentucky

Offline gmc

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Re: Zero string follow secrets?
« Reply #78 on: November 18, 2009, 07:18:40 am »
Thanks Keenen. That is a very good description of what I'm after here, "momentary displacement of the limb". So what would you call this condition, set or string follow? I agree, at some point temporary turns into permenant and the amount of time to reach permanent would be based on the amount of displacement to start with, agreed. But this could still be a secret if the temporary displacement is called "string follow". If not, the posters question has been answered.
« Last Edit: November 18, 2009, 07:31:00 am by gmc »
Central Kentucky

DCM4

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Re: Zero string follow secrets?
« Reply #79 on: November 18, 2009, 08:39:32 am »
"momentary displacement of the limb" does not have a unique name by convention that I'm away of.  I personally don't make a distinction, if the bow is 2" different from it's profile in stave form when first unbraced, it has 2" of set.  If it started with 1" of reflex, it has 1" of string follow and 2" of set.  A bow with a bunch of "spring back," if you will, is more than likely a little moisture heavy, or has an elastic backing like sinew.  I don't think a bow which springs back 1" from 2" of set will perform much differnent than one that springs back 2" from 2", all else being equal...  "much" being the operative word here as I could make a theoretical argument to the contrary.  If the belly wood can be uncompressed so easily, it ain't storing any energy anyway.  The trick is in most cases all things aren't equal, again MC being the difference which will effect performance.

I posted to say there's nothing magical about a deflexed stave, whether natural or induced, other than the geometry.  You could just as well add lenght or width, or overbuild, to the same effect.  That is, and here's the "secret" if there is one for newbies, crushed wood robs cast and that's all there is to it.  How to avoid crushed wood is the question/problem.  Whether we choose design (ie. deflex or longer or wider), or crafting (moisture content and tillering technique), or materials (tension wood, dense wood) isn't the question.  Again, an elk don't know how many legs a horse have.  Not to say deflex doesn't have it's place, particularly in shorter bow designs.

For newbies, 1" to 2" inches of set is typical for all of my projects, and antectdotally my bows seem to have above average but not exceptional cast.  I think it's a mistake to err on the side of being too careful (for a newbie), but at least as big a mistake to be too cavalier wrt how much set a particular project takes.  Only because many newbies suffer from project paralysis, where they are askeared to do anything "wrong" and the consequence is they don't do anything at all.  Much better to bust a few, mess up a few and keep on plugging, being just careful enough to get you a few shooters, regardless of how "good" they turn out.  We learn nothing from our successes, relative to our failures. 

But for seasoned hands, I see no reason other than personal preference to not strive for as little set as possible, leveraging any and all devices at hand to that end.  Again, if cast is important to you (not above other requiremens obviously) a "fresh" bow is a real eye opener.  Since all bows (of the same "kind") pretty much shoot the same, this is the one area I've found where a bowyer can achieve some marginal improvement in performance.  Obviously this assumes optimum material and design, the things we more typcially and easily can and do control.  This is the essence of the crafting, for me.

Offline Jesse

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Re: Zero string follow secrets?
« Reply #80 on: November 18, 2009, 08:39:49 pm »
Ok here is my vote for the new term. Momentary displacement of the limb should be called "delayed return"  ;D I'll use it in a sentence.  The delayed return on my new maple selfbow is a half inch over an hour. ;D
"If you can find a path with no obstacles, it probably doesn't lead anywhere."
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Offline Wolgen

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Re: Zero string follow secrets?
« Reply #81 on: November 20, 2009, 08:04:20 pm »
Once you get past the prickly part  :P , this is a dang good thread. A novice like me learned a thing or two, particularly about deflexed bows. I made a backed board version inadvertently last year. Alot of deflex but not enough reflex(I thought).
But right from the start it had alot of early draw. Yet even after completion I wasn' t happy with myself, vowing to do better
with the reflex. I think I'll quit kicking myself and go shoot my perfectly fine bow now  ;D

Offline ken75

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Re: Zero string follow secrets?
« Reply #82 on: November 20, 2009, 10:53:36 pm »
my head is spinning ! .... if it shoots hard and true dang the terms ! , i have one bow that is as jawge describes looks dang near strung when unstrung , ..but i can hit a beer can in the ditch at 20 steps with it and thats funner than drinking it !!!!! ;D

Offline George Tsoukalas

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Re: Zero string follow secrets?
« Reply #83 on: November 21, 2009, 12:51:36 pm »
ken, you are right. But do me a favor. Drink the beer first. :) Jawge
Set Happens!
If you ain't breakin' you ain't makin!

Offline dwardo

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Re: Zero string follow secrets?
« Reply #84 on: November 23, 2009, 07:54:35 am »
ken, you are right. But do me a favor. Drink the beer first. :) Jawge

I have always wanted to shoot at a full can of beer but i just cant physicaly bring my self to do it!

radius

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Re: Zero string follow secrets?
« Reply #85 on: November 23, 2009, 08:24:06 am »
I don't find the semantics question particularly compelling, or whatever aside the ed staff had to birddog, but I do think the topic has a LOT of merit.

I'm glad Eric posted what he did.  For years the dogma has been "set happens" as if it is something inevitable, something inherent and not introduced.  Fact is that set is CAUSED.  If you "overbuild" a bow enough, it will not change is profile during construction or use.  While I haven't had a selfbow project turn out this way, I'm convinced it can be done.  Badger pointed out a very useful technique years ago.  Check your draw weight at various intervals of tiller, say 20", 22", 24", 26".  Generally you'll find you get the same draw weight at say 20" until you get to about 26".  At this point you've exceeded the elastic limits of the material and you'll not ever get the same reading at 20".  This obviously assuming no wood removal, no change in moisture content, anything.  What you'll find is that you once you've broken past the elastic threshold, you'll never again achieve the efficiency potential once in the project.  Bow building for me has become a dance with the stave, to find and not cross this threshold, or at least not by too much.  It's a whole new way of looking at bow building, although not new.  Jim Fetrow preached the same thing 10 years ago, and was soundly ridiculed for it.  A bow can be made with no set, but not by the methods usually advocated, and taken for granted.  And, like Eric said, when it comes to bow wood whether species matters remains a question, but specimen definately matters.

I've actually had r/d bows increase reflex as belly wood is removed, where I had a lot of "spring back" out of the glue up.  The stronger belly was actually holding the relfex down.  I assume a similar phenomenon is taking place on "zero" set stave bows.  As belly wood is removed tension wood on the back is offseting the crushed belly wood.



hi

i would like to hear more about this "elasticity threshold".  Anybody else wanna chime in? 

radius

Offline Del the cat

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Re: Zero string follow secrets?
« Reply #86 on: November 24, 2009, 03:47:14 am »

hi

i would like to hear more about this "elasticity threshold".  Anybody else wanna chime in? 

radius
Oh well since you ask.
I don't think terms like elasticity threshold and such like can necessarilly be validly applied to materials like wood which are not homogenous.
What I mean is if you take a bit of wood, bend it until it takes a set (or follow...ok dear back to the semantics) it won't behave the same as it did before, but it doesn't mean it's broken, it's changed it's structure, possibly just in the outer layers of the wood. We know from experience that bending it back the other way won't restore it, but some compression (or maybe heat treating if that's you thing) is quite possibly a good thing.
My view is that the maths and physics in a bit of an interesting diversion for long winter nights, but the actual feel and performance of the wood is what matters.
Back to the semantics. I think set and string follow are the same and are a measure of how far the stave has deformed from it's original shape due only to bending forces during manufacture and use.
I think if a bow hasn't taken a bit of set/follow then it isn't working hard enough (I'm talking self bows ).
I do recognise however that the 'recovery bend' thing exists in some woods, so it may come back after an hour...dunno what I'd call that tho' ?
Del
Health warning, these posts may contain traces of nut.

Offline Pappy

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Re: Zero string follow secrets?
« Reply #87 on: November 24, 2009, 05:50:27 am »
Haven't followed this in a while,very good thread,Well put David,even I understand SOME
of that.  :) That has always been a problem with me and new folks,they always want to build the prefect bow the first time out of the gate and as David said you don't learn much from that,after
several Hundred I still haven't archived that,That's what keeps me at it.I always see something I could have done better on every bow. :)
   Pappy
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Offline Swamp Bow

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Re: Zero string follow secrets?
« Reply #88 on: November 24, 2009, 09:44:13 am »
Since we are talking about "temporary deformation" again, what are peoples thoughts on how that affects performance?  Does it rob cast/draw weight as compared to a bow that does not have said condition, assuming that both bows are "equal" in every other way?  I don't have enough experience to say, but my instinct says it should affect performance even if it is neglegible.  Del mentioned that some woods are more prone to this (Del please correct me if I misunderstood that), has this been the experience of others?  If it has, which woods are more prone?  Thanks.

Swamp
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radius

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Re: Zero string follow secrets?
« Reply #89 on: November 24, 2009, 10:19:42 am »
well, if it's negligible, something only a camera could pick up, let's not worry about it and just move on.

who originally asked the Q?

i still say heat tempering is one of the premier methods we can use to counteract set.