stone point trauma pics...

[billy]

When I make my hunting points the edge is usually kinda ragged, but the edges are super sharp.  I'm also very anal about getting my edges sharp and then keeping them that way.  When I first started knapping 15 years ago, I always tried to get the sharpest edges possible.  Now, for my final series of flakes, I use a pretty sharp antler tine and do what Hillbilly does: Take tiny flakes off to create a finely serrated edge.  But then I don't throw them into a quiver and go tromping all over creation either..... they bang together and the edges get dull very quickly.  Maybe that's the problem some of ya'll have been having, because once you make the point you then have to protect it!  As soon as I haft a stone point, I wrap each point with toilet paper to help cushion and protect them.... and I don't unwrap them until I am about to start hunting. 

I'm telling ya guys, I've made stone points with edges so damn sharp that they feel "sticky" when you run your finger over them.  Now, they won't shave the hair off your arm, but flying on an arrow at 160 feet-per-second is another story altogether.  Don't forget, even something as innocent as a sheet of paper or a blade of grass can cut you if the edge is drawn across your skin fast enough and with enough force.

Speaking of grass, if you look at the edges of a blade of grass very closely, do you know what it looks like??  It has small spikes spaced along the edge, identical to a saw (or a serrated stone point) !   

[Anaconda 12]

I agree the edges look to need a little more work in my opinion, but I can't feel it it may be ok I am puzzled by the lack of bloos and substance on the heads, I see a little spot on the shaft but everyone I have shot has had substantial blood and substance on the head and arrow,  again I cannot se the whole arrow, but look at the blood on the critter and arrow of this pic:



The blood that came from the low chest exit wound was crazy, just walked thru the woods at a normal pace following blood there was no creeping and losing blood the entire 40 to 45 yards where he laid!  Convinved me they work.

[Timo]

Ryano, I think you just had a run of bad luck bud. It happens to us all.

The top point looks like it might need some touching, but the bottom points looks perty good to me. Shoulda left some kind of blood trail.

[Ryan_Gill_HuntPrimitive]

In light of the discussion on this topic, i have put together another set of arrows, chert points on very well tapered foreshafts on cane. they all fly perfect and very thin and as sharp as i can possibly get them (re-sharpened of course after test shooting)  when deer season rolls around , i will be giving them another try. they will be shot from the ground at 12 yards or less from my 75# osage bow.   they are by far the best point/arrow combo that i have made thus far.  So i ofcourse will be sure to inform everyone on the outcome.  i truly do want them to work so i am going into it with a good frame of mind trying to prove them justifiably deadly, as opposed to trying to prove they fail. So hopefully i will see good results next time around.

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[Timo]

Not to burst your bubble, but ya might might think about taking off them outside edges that flip out.Just make them a straight taper.JMO. I think you'll get better penetration. Other than that,it all looks real good to me.

I applaud you for not giving up on this.

[Ryan_Gill_HuntPrimitive]

i was originally concerned with the flared edges, but i needed them to get a "legal width" i actually hoped that they might break off atr impact and give me a "bird point" in essence for better penetration. and if not, at least the hole going in would be bigger.  i based the design and size from several points that an archeologist friend of mine has in his collection, some with only one flare still intact and others complete.  i was only to surmise, if it was a popular design for the ancients, than perhaps i should re-create it  to work for me. the flares are very very thin little blades.  i actually have broken a few already testing them, but i made a bunch up so i can just keep slapping new ones on there, i think there are only 2 original survivors from that picture...lol

[Ryano]

Anaconda 12, those pictures are of before the arrows were shot into the deer. The arrows stayed in the deer on both cases....never to be seen again along with my deer.

Timo, three times in one season could definitely qualify as bad luck. The reason I didn't mention the third one is I know the shot placement wasn't the greatest on it, liver shot at best. Another local hunter found that deer nearly a month later with the arrow and stone point still in tacked. While I feel that one was mostly my fault for making a lousy shot, the deer still left no sign to follow, I have recovered lots of gut shot deer shot with a steel head. I just leave them lay all night and go back in the morning. They have always left some sort of a blood trail in the past.  

I got a few heads from Eddie over the weekend and Steve is going to make a few more for me to try again this year so I guess we'll see. I'm thinking of upping the overall weight of my arrows as well, in the hopes they will get a complete pass through.

[mullet]

 Ryan, looking at those points, I have to agree with Hillbilly. If you look close at the bottom point, you can see flat deltas on the edge, and the points aren't very sharp. I also use triangle points just glued to the shaft, without any criss-cross sinew wrap. I wrap the shaft from splitting only. And if I'm going to shoot it at a deer or hog, sorry, I put it on with real glue I know will not soften under any weather condition. I would also up the weight of the arrow to around 600-725 grn.

 And like Billy and Steve, I touch up the edge every night on my points. I also stuff a wad of Spanish Moss in the bottom of my quiver to keep them from rubbing and making noise. I had a State Wildlife Biologist in Kentucky  ask me if they were sharp enough to kill a deer. I ran it across his boot and left a 4"cut in the leather. Larry wasn't happy, but he was convinced.

[jamie]

only thing i can add to this is if you are going to hunt with stone points, you shoulg have some knapping ability. i no longer give hunting points out because every time i see them hafted they are dull. being able to sharpen your heads is vital. i have well over a dozen and a half white tails taken with stone points. one at 35 yards. . i also track out a lot of lost deer for other hunters and can tell ya. even guns and crappy steel points will fail to leave blood. . i also think there is good argument for not having a pass through. most of the animals ive shot were an absolute mess on the inside from the point having stayed inside.

[mullet]

  Twistedlimb, instead of taking out the flair, come under it and bring your corners to a sharp point, they are rounded now. If you have stone exposed you might as well make it all cut and stick.

  After reading Jamie's post, it is starting to sound like the consensus is poorly maintained points. I won't even say light arrows is part of the problem, because I know Marc StLouis shoots around 550 grn arrows and Chris Cade has killed deer with light weight bows.

[billy]

Muahhh.haa...haaa!!  We have convinced twistedlimbs to reenter the stone age and hunt with stone points!      I really wish ya the best of luck dude and hope that you can make it happen this time.  Just be sure to protect those points like they are tiny eggs so the edges will be of utmost sharpness when they hit that world-record trophy buck this fall.  Also, aim VERY close to that shoulder.  The one deer I shot this fall when the arrow almost went totally thru her, I thought for sure she was gonna be dead.  When I saw that arrow hit, I immediately said to myself "That's a dead deer."  Well, turns out my shot was still just a bit too far back and I only got one lung.  Oh yeah, she was dead....but where she died is still a mystery and I never found her. I am sending you SUPER luck twistedlimbs....the rest is up to you! 

[Timo]

Also another point that we haven't dicussed but most here probly know is the sinew wraps behind the point. By looking at twisted limbs pic I can see that he has got them wrapped well,go deal.

We are not sure what the points do on impact unless we recover the arrow,without ample wraps to hold that point from moving,it could get sideways, or even split the shaft causeing alot of loss of energy.

Just some thoughts, so wrap um well.

[Hillbilly]

A smooth transition from point to shaft is a must, too-anything that can snag or hang will slow down penetration. Looks like you've got that covered, the shaft ends look tapered and ramped up with pitch.

[Mechslasher]

heard about this thread at the classic and figured i'd throw my two cents worth in the pot.  there are three secrets to killing deer with a bow and i'll list them below:

-SHOT PLACEMENT

-SHOT PLACEMENT

-SHOT PLACEMENT

animals are tough!  if you take out both lungs, the animal will die within site.  it's that simple.  it doesn't matter what they are shot with, steel or stone.  i had a very crazy friend of mine shot a doe with a field point through both lungs.  she didn't make it 100 yards.  he forgot his broadheads that day and had field points in his quiver.  i've also seen deer walk off after being hit with a 2.5" vortex expanding broadhead in the chest.  i've skinned hundreds of deer, probably over a thousand.  i've found everything inside deer, rifle bullets, buckshot, broadheads, and even sticks.  i once found most of an arrow shaft with the broadhead in a doe.  she had been shot through both shoulders from a treestand.  the arrow angled down through the shoulders and stopped in the right front leg.  the wound was several years old and she had a fawn that year so she was healthy.  i shot a squirrel with a stone point that had to weigh 200gr.  it was a quartering away shot while he was climbing up the tree.  the point entered below his ribs and the tip of the point broke through at the base of the neck.  the squirrel still managed to run to the top of the tree carrying the 700-800gr. arrow.  quartering away shots are over rated.  true, if the shot is placed just behind the rib cage the point will have an unobstructed path to the lungs.  but the angle must be perfect to take out both lungs.  one lung is just not good enough.  i've seen arrows deflect off ribs on quartering away shots if the angle is too flat.  on my last deer i had such a shot.  she was staggering away, after being shot in the neck, and i took a severe quartering away shot.  the 750gr. grizzly tipped arrow entered just forward of the hip and stopped just short of breaking the skin at the neck and shoulder junction.  i only nicked the lung with the shot.  my last hog was killed with a stone point.  perfect broadside at 10 yards.  the arrow buried up to the fletching and the hog ran about 20 yards.  it bled like, well, a stuck pig.  the story and pics should be in the pa mag soon.  one problem i see quite often is hunters using light arrows.  i consider 500gr light.  i feel a hunting arrow should be 600+ gr.  most of mine are in the 700-800gr. range.  the main problem i have with stone is they come in around 100gr. for a hunting point, too light.  this needs to be offset with a very heavy shaft to aid in penetration.  i feel this is overlooked to often.

to see if your set up will work, at least on paper, here's the formula and rules i use:

KE = M * v2 / 450,240

<25 ft. lbs. for small game
30-40 for deer
> 40 for moose and elk

the setup on my hog hunt came to 35.03 ft. lbs.  the performance of my arrow proved the numbers correct.

[billy]

I totally agree with you Mechslasher, shot placement is key.  I believe that poor shot placement is by far the number one reason why deer are not recovered.  Every time I've put my arrow where I was aiming, that animal died amazingly fast.  When I don't, the animal ends up running away and is very difficult to find.  My failures have nothing to do with insufficient power, and everything to do with poor shot placement. When I practice a lot, my accuracy improves, and that improves my success on bringing home meat.  Period.

Fred Asbell wrote an article in Traditional Bowhunter several years ago about traditional bows for women, most of which pulled between 40-48 lbs.  Fred spoke to several hunters, and a few of them had killed elk with bows pulling 45-48 lbs.  But they were shooting very heavy arrows and had practiced rigorously to ensure they could hit the intended target. 

And I've also got two friends who have killed two deer each, so 4 deer total, that were carrying fragments of arrows in their bodies.  One friend told me he found an entire arrow embedded in the backstrap of a deer he killed.  This was a modern arrow, mind you, with a modern steel broadhead and carbon fiber shaft.  The friends who found arrow fragments also told me that all the deer that were carrying arrows in their bodies were healthy with no infection present.