stone point trauma pics...

[hawkbow]

For twenty thousand years the stone worked just fine.. I have taken lots of animals with stone points and can only say that shot placement is the key to a harvest.. most guys don't practice with their stone points enough to be confident with their equipment.. but stone points are deadly if shot into the kill zone.. in my opinion. The biggest problem with hunters trying stone is they use too big of a point and the point doesn't penetrate deep enough... Just my opinion  but with the exception of a few glancing off shots on turkey wings the stone has proven extremely deadly even on a variety of game species.. Hawk

[Ryan_Gill_HuntPrimitive]

I see where you are coming from eddie, and i agree with you.  obsidian is sharper than steel, that is true, but that is a one moleculat edge piece that is used,  surgical scalpels are not knapped. in other words no one is taking a ragged obsidian arrow points and cutting open a heart with it,   its just used in a different manor.  as you know being a good knapper, when you make an arrow head, even if its very very thin, the cutting surface has a lot more surface area that a steel cutting surface, and the more surface area the the mor drag and the less efficient the cut is.  just like we stated how if i take a flake of obsidian it would slice deep into my arm with little effort, but a knapped obs point may cut a bit but it wont slice as deep and clean and easily like a flake will.
        i think we all agree that if you hit the lungs or heart or arteries, the animal will die, no question about it, but a lot of times the stone pushed those organs out of the way instead of doing the maximum damage that a fine razors edge will.  a field point to the heart will kil a deer, but if you liver shoot a deer with a field point there is a great chance you will lose it but if you liver shoot with a broadhead, the hemmorage is too great and you most likely will find it within 100 yards.
     so i think what is being stated is, steel is more efficient and more forgiving. its less likely to break and will penetrate more without any question and will have a greater chance of recovering on a not so perfect shot.
     and yes i have shot dead deer with stone to get examples as well as live deer, and yes a stone point will destroy a rib bone, but if you hit a rib bone going in, you lose a lot of energy with a stone point that you wouldnt lose with a steel point.  that has been proven over and over, me and ryano both have had enough experience in shooting stone to know that getting out both sides of deer is tough to do with stone points, but easy to do with steel.

  so its not in question does stone work, we all know it does, but what is being discussed more than anything is are you at a handicap with shooting stone.

[Ryan_Gill_HuntPrimitive]

Hawk i agree withyou, small points are a lot better when it comes to stone, and not to sound rude like, and i never have had a probelm with you, so please dont feel like i am attacking you.  but isnt it illegal to hunt big game where you live with stone points?  and i am not questioning your legality, but more so questioning if you have lots of experience in shooting deer\elk\bear, or large hogs with stone points?  that is more of what is at question here i think.  also   fiberglass bows do have potentially more power than selfbows pound for pound, and i have noticed in lots of pictures of folks who shoot stone with success actually shoot them off of fiberglass bows.  anyone else every pick up on that?      and no that wasnt a dig on glass bows, i was just making an observation.

i am afraid of irritatiing people  with all that i write and i dont want to make any enemies,  i honestly do think i have lots of experience in this matter and i have a grasp on what it takes to use stone successfully and its somting i am passionate about.  not super successful...but passionate just the same.   i WANT stone to work just as well as steel  b\c its what i want to hunt with...but fact is its just really not as good.  also as mike said, a turkeys wing bone is a tough thinkg to shoot through, and i know for a fact that a wing is like armor especially for a stone point. i already proved that one too.  turkeys are best shot in the back or drumsticks and head\neck  with stone points..  so again you are kinda handicapping yourself with stone.

[Dax]

Mullet, are you saying that these fellows who have actual experience shooting animals with stone are just not capable of making good, ethical shots?  That's a pretty big assumption to make.  Do you have some examples you can show of their shot angles so we can feel better about digesting your assumptions?  Perhaps you have some of your own pics to provide that exhibit your prowess at producing surgically sharp obsidian broadheads and the damage that they are capable of producing....I'd like to see some of this stuff.  You haven't misspelled Georgia "Alabama" again have you???

[billy]

Below are pictures of the lungs from the deer I killed this past October.  The first photo is taken looking down on both lungs as though you were standing directly over the deer's back. You'll notice the hole in the rear lobe of the right lung, but it was the cutting of the major artery (the bruise just to the left of the hole) that I think killed the deer so quickly. 

The next picture is the underside of the lung, showing the long wound where the stone point angled upward and cut through the lung.  Note that the wound was toward the rear of the lung, but it didn't push it aside or even appear to move it at all, at least from what I could tell when I examined it.  If a stone point were to push the lungs aside, I would think the rear of the lung is where that would be most susceptible of happening.

I'm not trying to discredit anyone's opinion, just sharing what I have seen and experienced. 
 

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[mullet]

 Hey Dax, I don't know you or what you might be assuming about me or what you think I was getting at. But I do know, and have met both Ryan's personnably. I also know that both are excellent bowyers and bowhunters, like I said, never met you.

  What I was getting at is basicly what Mike was saying, some people don't hunt with stone all the time.  I have found, like RyanO that the game I lost was due to not being able to follow a blood trail good enough without a passthrough shot. That's why I started shooting bigger stone points and a heavier bow. I shoot mainly off the ground, mostly at hogs. It is not hard to get a clean pass through shot on a deer. Ask Chris Cade (mechlesher) or Marc St Louis. Marc wrote an article in PA on a head shot with a stone point. It hit around the forehead and traveled down into the neck. Just the tip was chipped off. Penetration is not a problem.  I still think that being familiar, and confident with all your hunting equipment is important.

  I'll be in Tenn this weekend at the Classic, Dax, love to meet you. Also, buddy go to hunting pictures of last year and I believe there is one of a dead turkey with a coral point.

[Hillbilly]

I know many people who have killed big game with stone points without losing animals. I also have seen many deer with Muzzy broadheads and bullets in them that survived or were lost. I think a good shot with a good stone point kills just as dead as the same shot with a steel point. There have been innumerable animals killed cleanly with stone, and there have been innumerable animals wounded and lost with steel points and bullets. There have also been studies done that show stone points often penetrating better than steel. I have seen photos of deer ribs cut into and shattered to hell with stone points. I'll qualify this by saying I have never shot a deer with a stone point, but I sure know plenty of people who have with great results. I also know people who have shot deer with stone points with not-so-good results. The biggest critters I've killed personally with stone points were a couple of groundhogs. They died instantly and dropped in their tracks. I can't tell you how many groundhogs that I've shot with guns over the years that have crawled back into their holes and were lost. A stone point is not a stone point is not a stone point, any more than a dull steel point is the same as a sharp one. A dull, thick point is a dull, thick point no matter what it's made of, and probably isn't going to make a clean kill whether it's stone, steel, or titanium. I see no reason why a stone point won't kill as well as a steel one if the shot is good and the point is sharp like it should be. But, I'll also say that It's a lot easier to sharpen a steel point hunting sharp than a stone one. I'll also say that a .300 mag will kill a deer quicker than any of our bows with more tolerance for bad shots, but I kinda like flinging arrows. 

[Pat B]

I have been hunting with stone points for 3 years now, but unfortunately I haven't connected yet. I will keep trying until I do. Won't fill the freezer but I am proving to myself it is possible. I know many folks that have achieved a clean kill with stone points but like with any ammunition, it depends on where you place the shot. I have not yet loosed a stone tipped arrow at an animal but my day is coming.

[Timo]

I've shot 7 deer with stone,recoverd 5 of them,The 2 that I didn't recover was due to poor shot placement. I possibly would have had the same outcome  with steel. Of the 5 recovered only 1 had a poor blood trail. All the others were as good as it gets! 2 fell in sight. Pass throughs no doubt are key here.Same with steel. I will tell you that 2 of the blood trails from stone were heavier than any I'd ever had.

Now maybe I just got lucky,but maybe not?   I shoot steel also and yes it does appear to be sharper to touch,( as long as one knows how to get steel hair popping sharp) And I'm sure that most on here can do that very thing,but as a flintknapper I will tell you that an errant flake will not stop bleeding until you apply pressure. I had a well known knapper tell me that stone will not only cut arteries,and veins, but it will also cut capillaries cleanly,thus causeing more hemorage.I believe this to be very true. The edge of the sharpest steel is not that sharp. Alot depends on how well the head is made,mounted,and shot to be sure of proper arrow flight, then sharpened again.

True that stone on rib can cause fracture and loss of energy, but what about steel? If the edge runs along a rib on entrance doesn't it dull ? Pushing by vitals? Losing energy also?

And why would I want to take a shot with steel that I wouldn't take with stone? Aren't we all suppose to wait until the right oppurtunity presents itself? When that happens, I don't think it matters what head you are shooting,only that it is as sharp as you can make it, and that you have the confidence to put it were you want. I am a firm believer that stone is just as effective as steel.

Sorry to carry on so much. This is a good topic to discuss.

[hawkbow]

 Twisted limbs....we can hunt with stone points for turkeys, predators and small game here.. fortunately I have hunted all over the west and have had lots of luck with stone besides here at home..  i have taken elk,mule deer and whitetail deer, coyote, fox badger, bobcat and turkey... ducks geese and pheasant with stone I have also seen bear and moose and lion taken with stone... so I guess I am sort of sure of their ability to kill quickly and efficiently .... by the way brother,I value my brothers of the bows opinions and am not easily offended.. hawk a/ho

[Dax]

Mullet, looks like you sway well with which way the wind blows and that's o.k.  Good to be flexible.  Good luck hunting and being a stand up guy who backs up what he says. 
Hey, Billy, that's some impressive stuff there...looks like the stone did its job on that one.  Here's a suggestion for everybody...for all of those who are having good success with stone and those who are not, would it be possible for you guys to send an example of the head you're using to each other and maybe this would help come up with a better understanding?  Maybe somebody's doing something different that makes penetration better.  Just a thought.

[Ryan_Gill_HuntPrimitive]

I am really enjoying seeing everyones responses,  i do believe those that have kiled with stone, although i stand by my theory that steel is statistically better.  but for the sake of further knowledge...--

for those that have killed with stone (big game only please) can you show a picture of the stone point you used or one just like it

and the size dimensions of it.  

along with whether it was a selfbow or lam bow,

what poundage bow,  

and if you can remember, did it hit a rib

i think these are the important factors that we can control, shot placement of course is crucial, but its somthing that changes from time to time and person to person, so its not a constant.  the questions above can be a constant.   thanks guys, i hope we can find a pattern that might solve some questions.  i personally think that points under the legal size limit are what will yield the best results

(haha looks like dax had about the same idea i did while i was writing)

[TRACY]

Great pics again! You don't happen to have a pic of the stone head do you? Healthy debate

[billy]

Here's a pic of the point I killed my deer with.  It didn't hit a rib on entry, but slipped between them.  The point is only about 1/2 to 5/8 of an inch wide at the most.  One thing I've noticed is that smaller, narrower points seem more likely to slip between the ribs when compared to a wider point.  A wider point is MUCH more likely to hit ribs unless the point is exactly parallel with the ribs at the moment of impact.  The bird point test I conducted also showed me that narrow points missed ribs with a much greater probability than I had ever thought possible.  Although the bird point test showed they were effective, I'm still not sure if a wider point would produce a better blood trail or faster death thru hemmorage.  I missed a shot at a deer this past fall with a bird point tipped arrow, so I still have yet to try them out on a live deer to determine if they are worthy of hunting with or not.  The jury is still out.... but I'll pass on my discoveries as soon as I find out their performance. 

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[Timo]

This is the point from the first deer I shot with stone. Raw Texas material,side notch,1" wide. (This is IMO the best design for hunting heads).It busted a rib on entrance,and the point was just through the skin on the off side. I found the tip that was broken later while eating a piece of meat. 6 yd shot,53# selfbow.ocean spray arrow,can't remember the weight.40 yd recovery.Good blood trail.





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