stone point trauma pics...

[billy]

For anyone who doubts the effectiveness of stone points, I've got some pics below that should help flush those suspicions right down the toilet like yesterday's turd. 

I found these pics of a rabbit I killed a few months ago.  Shot it at 15 yards with an osage self bow,  rivercane arrow, and small triangular flint point.  When I butchered the rabbit I also performed an autopsy and discovered that the stone point had cleanly severed the aorta in half.  Now I've heard some people say that stone points only shove arteries or other similar structures out of the way because the edges aren't razor sharp.  Well, these pics are proof that simply isn't true.  The aorta on a rabbit is quite thin, and I would imagine that if anything would be shoved out of the way by a stone point it would be a rabbit aorta.  What's ironic is that the stone point actually needed to be resharpened, as it wasn't as sharp as I like.  Even still, it was more than enough to kill the rabbit. 

You'll notice that I am pointing to the severed aorta with a bamboo skewer.  The other pics are of me and the rabbit, and the point I got him with.  Now get out there and start shooting some stone!!   

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[huntertrapper]

i believe ya! ill never doubt stone. 

[hawkbow]

great informative pics brother.... good kill and honorable harvest.. wish we could hunt big game with stone here but the game and fish told me it is not the stone age.. guess fifteen thousand years of stone tipped death wasn't enough proof for them.. Hawk

[mrkinsey]

NY allows for any sharp material on an arrow as long as it is 7/8 inches wide or more. Stone, bone, antler, metal, even wood if it is sharp enough, can be used as arrow heads.  Yet another reason I <Heart> NY.

[ricktrojanowski]

Nice Post-Mortum investigation Dr. Billy.  Also nice shot.

mrkinsey-  I guess that is one reason to love NY.  Now at least I have one  .  I was running quite low lately.

[lowell]

Helps convince me to use a stone point for turkey next week. 

 Also have been shooting steel and stone points into a broadhead target and the stone point seems to be penetrating as well as the steel!!

[Dax]

I love the thought of taking a big game animal with stone...just seems fitting that with a selfbow it should be fitted with a cane arrow and a stone point.  However, I will say that using a rabbit as proof positive that a stone point is effective for all game is a little off.  Doesn't take much to kill ol' Peter Cottontail..and/or his brethren hares, jackrabbits, etc.  Several folks have killed hogs, deer...practically most big game with stone points, so don't get me wrong.  Reckon you could take down a larger animal and post those results sometime?

[huntertrapper]

billys killed a deer and turkey with stone and other guys on here have killed big game too.

[Pat B]

I think the rabbit is a good subject for a stone point lethality test. That rabbit doesn't weigh 2# and look at the penetration and organ damage. Think about an animal that weight 100# and the resistance against the arrow that would allow it to penetrate better.

[Ryano]

Well they may work for you Billy but my experience has been different and one rabbit isn't going to remove any of my doubts about trying it again. We all know that stone points can kill if the circumstances are right, no ones arguing that, but lets not kid our selves and say there as lethal as a razor sharp steel head because that's just plain not true.  I tend to believe what I've seen with my own two eye's over what some one tries to tell me on the Internet. If you think you not majorly handicapping yourself by shooting stone points your kidding yourself. Now I'm all up for a challenge (If I wasn't, I wouldn't be hunting with a self bow) don't get me wrong.....but I hate seeing wounded and unrecovered animals. I'm not saying I'll never try hunting with a stone point again, but if I do it will only be under the exact perfect circumstances, as in very close range, shooting from the ground, broadside,  preferably with snow on the ground for tracking... I've hit them to many times out of tree stand with no pass through and had no blood trail to follow vs. the same exact shot with a steel head, no problem, plenty of blood to follow.

[Ryan_Gill_HuntPrimitive]

I am with dax and Ryano,  dax knows my own personal experience, and me and Ryano have discussed this as well. YES stone will kill, and you can pretty much get 100% recovery rate on squirrels and rabbits, but deer are a different story.  I know that billy has killed a deer with stone point....but..,  i have shot enough to know it doesnt always have a story book ending. deer i have shot with stone point and a 75pound selfbow at 8 - 15 yards have gotten away and if i was shooting steel i am sure the shot would have been fatal.
       i will tell you right now,  it is based on a lot of shooting skill, and even more luck.   if you hit a rib going in it will almost certainly not exit the other side....the entry wound must miss  rib to get maximum penetration,  and a stone point just doesnt have the strength and sharpness as steel, and in a lot of cases will harmlessly push organs aside and not be fatal or...may be fatal in a few days.
     if you miss ribs then you will most likely kill the deer, but if you hit rib, good luck on that blood trail. of course there are some chances when hitting a rib could benefit, like deflecting into the heart or jamming broken bone into an organ, but you simply cannot rely on that to happen.  so as Ryano said, you are really handicapping yourself using stone, which is ok as long as you understand ahead of time that you might not get the animal even on a great shot.
      I come from the otherside of the fence, originally.  i told people without a doubt that stone was sharper than steel and will kill just as easily, until i got first hand experience.  and i dont mean just one deer either, Ii have lost a few that i made good shots on.  and yes stone i have knocked flakes from have been sharper than steel, but that was a thin flake. you can shave with that thin flake, but when you chip all the other flakes off, its no longer shave-able.  Despite thinking its a bunch of little razor blades, i can scrape it along my arm and not slice myself open, but if i try that with one of my trade points i would need stitches
    I admire Billy's tenacity and love of hunting with stone, and i wish him the very best in using it, but i honestly dont think he has enough experience in shooting big game to see the loss it causes, i kill squirrels all the time with nothing more than a 40 cal empty shell casing, so killing one with a bird point really isnt accomplishing much..in all honestly. (that wasnt directed to be insulting, hitting a squirrel is tough to do, i am not saying its easy, but killing it once its hit with an arrow is not too hard).  And really, I like Billy for what i know about him, i think he has lots of knowledge and skill and i certainly wouldnt bad mouth him for his choices or accomplishments. But i am afraid that he will have future bad experiences, with continuing to shoot stone points at deer especially from a selfbow in the 40# range.    i shoot 75-80# at deer and have never got out both sides of a deer using stone, and that was with very well made heads, and perfectly straight shooting arrows. but have always got complete penetration using steel   - Ryan
         

[billy]

I appreciate everyone's input on this subject.  Of course I understand everyone's perspective, but I am only relating what I have seen from my own personal experience.

No, I don't have much experience in the way of shooting big game animals with stone points.  It took me 7 years to get my first deer with all primitive equipment.  That being said, I have shot 5 deer with stone points and only recovered one.  But before people assume it was the stone points to blame, let me tell you what happened:

My first shot at a deer was 4 years ago.  It was quite dark and I was about to leave when a doe appeared in front of me at 19 yards.  I drew back and fired, but unfortunately the shot was too low.  The stone point hit the deer in the brisket, she hunched her back and immediately bolted.  Never found a single drop of blood, but I'm pretty sure that deer healed up within a few days.

Second deer I shot was with the same arrow but different point this past fall  At 20 yards, my 52 pound osage self bow punched that arrow almost completely thru the deer, only the fletch stayed inside.  She ran off, but I found the forward part of the arrow completely covered in blood.  After examining it more closely, the arrow was found to have some stomach contents on it.  Turns out my shot was just a bit too far back, hitting one lung and the top of the stomach.  Never found that deer.

Third shot was a few days later.  I made a good shot on a doe, but unfortunately the doe was looking at me, and I was afraid she was gonna run, so I rushed the shot and didn't hit full draw.  Only got one lung, but never found that deer. 

Fourth shot was on a big mature doe, but I made sure to hit full draw this time.  The shot was a bit too far back, it hit the rear of the right lung but angled upward, severing the major artery that runs along the spine.  She fled 50 yards and died.  That deer was recovered.

Several days later I shot another doe at about 12 yards. Same bow, cane arrow, with a point made from a beer bottle bottom.  I was shooting at a slightly upward angle which caused me to shoot high.  Hit her in the backstrap and she ran off.  Never found that deer, but she most likely survived.

The turkey I killed with my primitive bow only ran 50 feet after being hit with a stone point. My brother witnessed the kill, so he was inspired to try with his compound bow.  He  shot 2 turkeys with his compound bow, carbon arrows, and muzzy 3-blade broadheads.  Complete pass thru on both birds.  Both turkeys ran 90 yards into the woods.  One turkey was found the next day, half eaten by coyotes.  Other turkey was never found. 

Of all the shots I have taken at deer, only one was what I would consider a perfect shot...however I didn't hit full draw so penetration was poor.  The shot in which I recovered the deer was also less than ideal, but it just happened to cut something good and so that deer was recovered.

The only shot that I hit exactly where I wanted to was with the turkey. And that shot proved amazingly lethal.

I don't blame the stone points for the deer I lost.  It was operator error: poor shot placement and not hitting full draw on one shot.  I tend to get really worked up when a deer walks in front of me, and unfortunately I forget everything I've been practicing.  I know I can make accurate shots, but the buck fever is what messed me up.  That is where I feel I need to improve the most.   

Anyone else with comments on stone points, good or bad, let's hear it!  Thanks again for everyone's input, and no offense has been taken on my part.   

 

[TRACY]

Interesting opinions. Thanks for the pics, I really appreciate the details. I will use flintknapped points for the upcoming season for whitetails. I have plenty of confidence that if I do my part, my chances will be greater for harvest but never guaranteed as with any weapon/projectile. Every situation is different and highly unpredictable, especially on the side of prey behavior. I can respect others' accounts of their experiences for and against and feel that it is a personal choice that will vary from one to another. Good luck to all next season.

Tracy

[Ryano]

Interesting. So you agree with me that stone points are a major handicap? Your shooting needs to be flawless...I think you need to center up on both lungs broadside or your relying on bull headed luck. I think steel points have a major advantage because they cut more tissue than a stone point does and arrows kill by mass hemorrhage, thus if your shot isn't perfect you have a much better chance of recovering your animal. I hunt with about a 50 pound bow and 550 grain arrows and have only got a complete pass through shot one time even with steel points. I have shot several deer with obsidian points and with out a exit hole there was no blood to follow. The same exact shot with a sharp steel head yeilded a very impressive short blood trail.

[mullet]

 It is not true that steel is sharper than stone. The Facts are just the opposite. Obsidian is used in most delicate heart and eye surgery because the edge of the blade is cleaner and not ragged. Just Google Obsidian and surgery.

 It sounds like some questionable shots might have been taken. Low light, wrong angle, maybe not the best opportunity? Nobody forces anybody to take THAT shot. And the truth is, if you hit the heart, lung, both lungs, or liver, it is going to die.
 
 I also shoot a heavier bow than 50# and have seen a stone point destroy a rib bone.