Author Topic: Crossbows outrange Longbows?  (Read 48656 times)

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Offline kiwijim

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Re: Crossbows outrange Longbows?
« Reply #30 on: June 09, 2009, 08:35:17 am »
Jaro,
Are you saw you saw no medival crossbows at this site?
Prehaps you went to a different site?
http://www.thecrossbowmansden.com/Home.html

Offline bow-toxo

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Re: Crossbows outrange Longbows?
« Reply #31 on: June 09, 2009, 06:11:56 pm »
Jaro,
Are you saw you saw no medival crossbows at this site?
Prehaps you went to a different site?
http://www.thecrossbowmansden.com/Home.html

  I looked too, twice, and also couldn't find anything that looked like a mediaeval crossbow. I saw some with wierd looking tillers, some like rifle stocks etc How do you locate the mediaeval ones ?

                                                                                   Erik

Offline kiwijim

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Re: Crossbows outrange Longbows?
« Reply #32 on: June 10, 2009, 12:38:11 am »
look on the 'projects' page

Offline bow-toxo

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Re: Crossbows outrange Longbows?
« Reply #33 on: June 10, 2009, 03:07:34 am »
look on the 'projects' page

 Yes, saw that one with the photo of a modern rifle type match crossbow stock and mention of bronze nut, trigger guard, screws, and Swiss target bow.

Offline ChrisD

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Re: Crossbows outrange Longbows?
« Reply #34 on: June 10, 2009, 04:58:02 pm »
Gerald actually claimed the penetration was a hand span so 4" but he was prone to the odd bit of exaggeration.  He recounts a 'factual' tale of a human/horse chimera as the result of an unholy union between an Irish man ad a horse :o

Nothing unusual in that - very common in Ireland - amazed you hadn't noticed! There is also the union between human and pig which gives rise to very successful politicians, human and donkey often to be found working in banks - and whole host of others.

C

triton

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Re: Crossbows outrange Longbows?
« Reply #35 on: June 11, 2009, 06:20:11 am »
Gerald actually claimed the penetration was a hand span so 4" but he was prone to the odd bit of exaggeration.  He recounts a 'factual' tale of a human/horse chimera as the result of an unholy union between an Irish man ad a horse :o

Nothing unusual in that - very common in Ireland - amazed you hadn't noticed! There is also the union between human and pig which gives rise to very successful politicians, human and donkey often to be found working in banks - and whole host of others.

C

 :o ;D ;D ;D

Offline Yeomanbowman

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    • warbowwales
Re: Crossbows outrange Longbows?
« Reply #36 on: June 11, 2009, 07:23:24 am »
Gerald actually claimed the penetration was a hand span so 4" but he was prone to the odd bit of exaggeration.  He recounts a 'factual' tale of a human/horse chimera as the result of an unholy union between an Irish man ad a horse :o

Nothing unusual in that - very common in Ireland - amazed you hadn't noticed! There is also the union between human and pig which gives rise to very successful politicians, human and donkey often to be found working in banks - and whole host of others.

C

You're an Irishman, Chris.  I wouldn't have got away with any jokes :D  At times I think my builder is the result of human/sloth.

Offline Jaro

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Re: Crossbows outrange Longbows?
« Reply #37 on: June 12, 2009, 03:09:35 am »
Kiwijim - the crossbow on "projects" page has nothing to do with medieval crossbows. Nothing at all. The shape, the stock, the prod, nothing  matches. The technology is lightyears from what would have been used on 15. century crossbow. If you think it its correct, then you know nothing about them.
They are tricky to build, if you cut the corners with modern technology and I dont know anybody who would build comercial replica of medieval crossbow, which would at least LOOKED like one, the correctness of construction aside. I know of hobbysts who build very good replicas, altough most uses fiberglass prods dressed and masqueraded as composite prods - which is what I do, hovewer the stock, the bone parts, the friction bedded roller nut, the rope fastening of the prod etc. can be made correctly. But nobody sells it since it is bloody work, which does not pays off.

Yeomanbowman - Gerald of Wales is amusing medieval liar, though most of the chroniclers seem to have their weak moments. I recall Geralds description of crowning of Wales king, which involves intercourse with white as, then killing the animal with swords and eating soup cooked from the meat. But he sure knew how to amuse readers.


Offline kiwijim

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Re: Crossbows outrange Longbows?
« Reply #38 on: June 12, 2009, 03:33:15 am »
jaro,
I am not going to enter an argument whether those crossbows are late medieval or not, in hindsight I am prepared to conceed there. The only reason I provided the link was to show you a +500lb crossbow being loaded with a goatsfoot. Do not let that detract from my original points:
1)Medieval crossbows could have been alot heavier than given credit.
2)A simple spanning device enables a heavy crossbow to be spanned with relative ease.
3)Crossbows of this power will store and release more enery than longbows and will outrange them.

So far you have used speculation to accuse me of talking science fiction and not knowing anything, but come on jaro, disprove me or shut it. >:D

regards
james

Offline Jaro

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Re: Crossbows outrange Longbows?
« Reply #39 on: June 12, 2009, 06:52:10 am »
I have used my personal experience which I have with building of medieval crossbows. You have used a site which does not have anything to do with medieval crossbows as a source of your information.

Frankly, I dont know if you are aware of standarts of academical debate, but negatives do not need to be proven. It is not me who have to "disprove" anything, it is on you to "prove" things. So far you did so by citing information from site which concerns building of crossbows with metal grooves and using match rifle stocks.

Let me amuse gentle readers of this with little reiteration:

1) Medieval crossbows could have been alot lighter than given credit  (Completelly ommiting the fact that there is more than one type of such crossbow and that we have surviving examples of some which must have been very light. )
2) Simple spanning device enables crossbows which coud otherwise only be spanned by very strong men to be spanned with relative ease (That is if you have studied the actual development of crossbows, you would find examples which have been uprgaded from simple hook to hook with a single pulley and then in late 15. century for german cranequin - which is observable on the changes the craftsman did on the stocks) - we have the actual museum examples of this development
3) Crossbows of which power? If you are talking about anything else than cranequin cranked crossbows, then the answer is probably "no". 

Note on goat lever - I have trouble of finding them in some numbers in medieval sources. Its either hook or hook with pulley, or later a cranequin. There is english windlass crank, but that is it and not very common in western or mid europe or on continent anyway. The goat lever is something I associate with swiss or continental sporting crossbow of 17. century and there is very little of them. Should goat lever be used on lighter meditearean types of crossbows, such as used in Italy - it was wood, and there we are back where we were, not as strong as you wildly imagine.

Jaro
« Last Edit: June 23, 2009, 10:57:31 am by Rod »

Offline kiwijim

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Re: Crossbows outrange Longbows?
« Reply #40 on: June 12, 2009, 09:07:11 am »
jaro, as I said,
read my points or my posts, all of which you seem to skirt around.
I would have thought the simple maths I provided earlier would have proven, beyond doubt, my point about span weight achievable by cocking mechanisms. The numbers you quoted about what the average man can span are, really, a bit silly. You sound a bit like a Victorian historian talking about draw weight s of the english war bow.
Also, If you object to being patronised, then dont accuse someone of ficton straight-up, espeacially when you can't prove it.
You see, I build and shoot working heavy crossbows, and quite simply , I object to reinactors or academics telling me what I am and am not capable of.
 However, if you want a scrap, why dont you email me personally. or even better drop in for a drink.

Regards

james

Offline bow-toxo

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Re: Crossbows outrange Longbows?
« Reply #41 on: June 13, 2009, 12:37:03 pm »
look on the 'projects' page

 I was describing the projects page. The only mediaeval thing there was the description of mediaeval bolts.

Offline kiwijim

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Re: Crossbows outrange Longbows?
« Reply #42 on: June 13, 2009, 05:35:00 pm »
Dont get distracted by all the other stuff on the site, The only reason I provided the link was to show a 500lb plus crossbow that was loaded with a goats foot. As I said before I am happy to conceed that those crossbows are not medieval.

regards

JAmes

Offline bow-toxo

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Re: Crossbows outrange Longbows?
« Reply #43 on: June 13, 2009, 06:42:33 pm »
[quote author=Jaro link=topic=12247.msg187577#msg187577 date=124479
 

Note on goat lever - I have trouble of finding them in some numbers in medieval sources. Its either hook or hook with pulley, or later a cranequin. There is english windlass crank, but that is it and not very common in western or mid europe or on continent anyway. The goat lever is something I associate with swiss or continental sporting crossbow of 17. century and there is very little of them. Should goat lever be used on lighter meditearean types of crossbows, such as used in Italy - it was wood, and there we are back where we were, not as strong as you wildly imagine.

Jaro

[/quote]

A further note on goat's foot or 'gaffle' lever in Elizabethan times. Smythe, in whose time old men could remember the use of crossbows and longbows on horseback, recommended the use of "crossbowyers on horseback, under sufficient conductors well skilled in that weapon. I would they should have crossbows of two pound and a half of the best sort, with crooked gaffles hanging at their strong girdles after the manner of Germans, that they might on horseback bend their crossbows the more easily and readily, with four-and-twenty quarrels in a case well and fitly set at their saddle pommels". These gaffles were the easiest way for a mounted man to cock a crossbow.

Ahnlaashock

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Re: Crossbows outrange Longbows?
« Reply #44 on: June 14, 2009, 08:31:51 pm »
First snooty BS I have seen on this board, and like usual, from people that should know better!  Behave yourselves in public!