Author Topic: ??? on growth rings  (Read 23949 times)

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Offline Skeaterbait

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??? on growth rings
« on: December 19, 2006, 04:19:07 pm »
What are the affects of thicker and thinner growth rings and which is more desirable?


Roger

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Re: ??? on growth rings
« Reply #1 on: December 19, 2006, 04:46:25 pm »
Lonnie,
I'm no expert but here's my take on it. I don't look at the ring thickness as much as I look at the ring density. Thin dense rings are very good where as thick rings that are not makes for flabby cast an more mass. That being said...a thicker ring is easier to work. I had some thin ringed Osage that was red in color and very dense. It was a pain to get a back on but made smokin' bows.
Hope this helps...

R
« Last Edit: December 19, 2006, 04:48:04 pm by Roger »

Offline tom sawyer

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Re: ??? on growth rings
« Reply #2 on: December 19, 2006, 05:52:41 pm »
I agree with Roger but I'll throw in a few more observations.

First, I often find that thinner growth rings often have a worse ratio of summer to spring growth, simply becuase the spring ring is going to be about the same thickness while the summer growth can vary considerably.  Also, older trees tend to slow down in growth rate it seems.  I generally find thinner rings on the outer parts of bigger diameter trees, and you can see more vigorous growth in the tree's younger years.  Might be that it is simply using up some of the nutrients avaialbe in the soil.  Maybe a tree has a set lifespan like humans.  Who knows.  And of course there are exceptions, and they are worth looking for for the following reason.

Second, when you make a bow belly you are tapering thickness, and whenever you get to s pring ring you are at a bit of a step in terms of strength.  That bit of spring ring that is exposed on the surface of the belly, is weaker than the surrounding summer wood, however slightly.  I think maybe the spring growth mashes down to the density of the surrounding wood, but that takes just a bit of set for this to happen.  For this reason, several thin growth rings would lead to several smaller steps, and a more gradual transition along the belly.  At least when the total spring/summer ratio is the same as a corresponding thicker ringed piece of wood.

One more observation.  It seems that sometimes within a summer ring you will find somewhat more of a porous nature, more of the light colored dots that are the spring-type vessels.  These hollow vessels are not as strong as the deep yellow wood.  So in evaluating your wood, don't just limit yourself to measuring (by eyeball) the spring/summer ratio.  Look more closely.

Thats all assuming you're standing in front of a pile of already-split staves, trying to select a few of the best.  If you've cut a tree and split it, whatever you got is going to make a bow.  No need to be super picky after you've done all that work.
Lennie
Hannibal, MO

Offline bootboy

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Re: ??? on growth rings
« Reply #3 on: December 19, 2006, 05:58:53 pm »
See this is why this site helps so much. Ive been trying to find thick ringed mullberry, and elm, because i thought that it made better bows.
the elm stave i chopped down the other day is somewhat in between. but the hickory i cut was pretty thin.
knapp 'um if you got 'um

Offline Hillbilly

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Re: ??? on growth rings
« Reply #4 on: December 19, 2006, 06:25:45 pm »
I too look more for the early/latewood ratio than thickness, but all else considered, I'd rather have some good thick rings if they're dense and solid. I've never dealt with yew, but apparantly with it, the thinner and tighter the rings the better, opposite of what most of us look for in hardwoods. Bootboy, it's really hard to find hickory with thicker rings unless it is a small, young tree. Thin-ringed hickory still usually makes good bows. It's common to find mulberry with very thick rings, though.
Smoky Mountains, NC

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Progress might have been all right once but it's gone on for far too long.

duffontap

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Re: ??? on growth rings
« Reply #5 on: December 19, 2006, 07:00:57 pm »
Two cents worth:

Large trees put on mass faster than small trees because they have larger systems to take in more nutrition.  A 1/32" growth ring on a 4' diameter tree 200' tall represents much more actual mass than a 1/2 growth ring on a 4" tree that's 20' tall.  Logging companies cut their trees while they are still young, not because they grow too slowly when they are mature, but because the interest on their investment maxes out at about 30-40 years. 

Yew is often judged loosely on its ring count because tight ring count is sometimes a clue to its density.  Soil nutrition, genetics, availability of sunlight, and a dozen other things contribute to a woods density.  Yew (and other woods) can be dense at 10 rings per inch and light and flimsy at 150 rings per inch. 

            J. D. Duff

Timo

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Re: ??? on growth rings
« Reply #6 on: December 19, 2006, 07:34:10 pm »
Tom Thumb, you sure do alot of observing?:)

Offline Skeaterbait

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Re: ??? on growth rings
« Reply #7 on: December 19, 2006, 10:44:17 pm »
So how do you tell the difference in summer and spring rings?

Roger

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Re: ??? on growth rings
« Reply #8 on: December 19, 2006, 11:26:53 pm »
On Osage the darker rings are the latewood which are transformed each year from the lighter spring growth in the sapwood...The thin yellow rings are the spongy earlywood rings.



R
« Last Edit: December 19, 2006, 11:38:48 pm by Roger »

Offline Justin Snyder

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Re: ??? on growth rings
« Reply #9 on: December 20, 2006, 02:00:44 am »
Boy Roger, I would take a ratio like that any time.  If you get wood with thin early rings like that you cant go wrong.  With hardwoods like Osage and Mulberry I also look at the darkness of the late wood. If you see the real dark color like in Rogers sample it is good.  Sometimes you will get some that looks bleached out, it usually sucks.  That is the reason why nothing is better than experience. Even with my limited experience I can see the difference. I can only imagine what you guys that know what you are doing can see.  Justin
Everything happens for a reason, sometimes the reason is you made a bad decision.


SW Utah

Roger

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Re: ??? on growth rings
« Reply #10 on: December 20, 2006, 02:19:00 am »
On this one you can see what Justin is talking about. The color seems a little washed out and not as dark...this is still good but not as good....Look at the second thick ring from the outside.



R

Offline Skeaterbait

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Re: ??? on growth rings
« Reply #11 on: December 20, 2006, 09:15:03 am »
I am a visual person, the pics were great and really put all this info in to perspective. Thanks all.


Offline Mechslasher

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Re: ??? on growth rings
« Reply #12 on: December 20, 2006, 10:35:04 am »
that's about as good as osage gets!!
"A liberal is someone who feels a great debt to his fellow man, which debt he proposes to pay off with your money." 

G. Gordon Liddy

Offline Pat B

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Re: ??? on growth rings
« Reply #13 on: December 20, 2006, 10:57:16 am »
The osage ELB I won BOM last Feb has very thin rings(would be perfect yew) and the early/late ratio was about equil. This bow took a little set but nothing excessiuve and that could be the design ...or me.  I have a few more staves with those same rings that I will try some differant designs with and see how they come out. 
   The first Pic Roger posted is ideal as far as I am concerned.  It's hard to find sage like that around here. 
   There is also a consideration about ring defused and ring porous woods. I have a hard time explaining the differances but the early rings seen to blend in more with the late rings and the wood is more uniform through out in ring diffused wood(is that right), so woods like black walnut, cherry, have early and late woods blending together and woods like osage, mulberry, locust and ash have very differant early and late woods.
   Do the same principals come into play with both types of wood, ie ring porous and ring defused ?          Pat
Make the most of all that comes and the least of all that goes!    Pat Brennan  Brevard, NC

Offline tom sawyer

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Re: ??? on growth rings
« Reply #14 on: December 20, 2006, 01:24:45 pm »
Yep I'm very observant.  Doesn't seem to have got me anywhere though.
Lennie
Hannibal, MO