Author Topic: Medieval Arrow Question  (Read 11573 times)

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alnbren

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Medieval Arrow Question
« on: February 19, 2009, 08:58:58 am »
Let me start by stating some assumptions I have about arrow selection even in medieval days and then ask my question. 

My assumptions:

Yeomen of English legend were much more sophisticated in their understanding of archery than modern historians give them credit for:

1) They understood the need to spine the arrows for their bow.  They might go through a thousand or more shafts to find 48 that were correctly spined for their bow.

2) They understood the need to select their arrows for accuracy.  This is a process were arrows are numbered and shot at a target.  Over several times of doing this, you discover that arrows 1,4 & 9 shoot in the same spot every time.  The goal in Medieval times would be to identify roughly 48 arrows that shot the same way as 1,4 & 9 so that the archer was consistently accurate. 

My Question:

Wouldn't the medieval archer have boldly personalized his arrow set after painstakingly going through the process of selecting each arrow that went with him on a campaign?  If so then why hasn't the historical reenactment community done the same?   Maybe they have.  I'm not a reenactor so maybe that's why I haven't seen too many examples of it.  Whenever I've seen an example of Medieval arrows, it's always a natural wood shaft with white or black fletching and tied off with white or black silk string. 

Keep in mind my questions are only valid if my assumptions are valid.

Thanks in advance for your thoughts and expertise.

Allen




alnbren

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Re: Medieval Arrow Question
« Reply #1 on: February 19, 2009, 11:00:03 am »
And here is the answer to my question by Glennan Carnie on another forum for those of you who are interested.  I makes sense to me.


"1) Medieval bows were, in general, of much higher draw-weight than the later, sporting, longbow. The ability to shoot a strong bow was much favoured by the medieval man (just look at the comparison between shooting a heavy bow and sexual prowess in medieval literature!). On a heavy bow (100lb upwards) spine is much less important than on a lighter bow (as we say: "stiff enough is good enough!"). Weight and geometrical consistency are more important for consistent shooting.

2) Don't mistake consistency for accuracy. I can quite easily put a dozen arrows in exactly the wrong place!

3) It's almost certain each archer would have their own 'best' set of arrows for competitions, etc. These would be marked and personalised accordingly.

4) For battle an archer was required to array himself with two sheaves (48) of arrows. Whether he took his 'best' arrows was probably a personal choice. I would, for competitions and practice on compaign - remember, you're often trying to prove yourself against the best the country has to offer; and everyone wants to see who's The Best!

5) However, each archer didn't just shoot his 48 arrows, then go home. The King provided hundreds of thousands of 'Livery' arrows, all made to a standard (now lost) specification (The same is true with livery bows). As a military archer a man needed to be able to meet the required standards of range and accuracy using the standard livery bow and standard livery arrow. It is highly unlikely livery arrows were decorated but there is some evidence that they may have been marked (perhaps per sheaf) by the makers.

6) The re-enactment community is woefully mis-representative of the medieval archer. Typically (in the UK) battlefield archery is the preserve of children, women, the elderly and the infirm. Anachronisms like the use of Victorian target bows or American flat bows are rife; and very few re-enactors are willing (or able) to put in the effort to learn to draw a medieval weight bow. It therefore doesn't surprise me that you don't see accurate representations of arrows on the field."

Offline adb

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Re: Medieval Arrow Question
« Reply #2 on: February 19, 2009, 02:26:43 pm »
My opinion, based on experience & reading:

Livery arrows (those provided by the crown, and used in warfare) were built to a consistent standard. These were provided in sheaves of 48 (as evidenced from the MR), and supplied by the hundreds of thousands from baggage carts before battle. Medieval battlefield archey was more about massed volley of heavy projectiles, with the ability to penetrate armour. Medieval artillery, if you will. Massed volley was more important than accuracy. With heavy weight bows (>100#), arrow spine is not as important.
I believe accuracy was important, however. Being able to consistently place arrows to a mark was part of being a martial medieval archer. Were arrows matched? Possibly. I personally haven't seen evidence, but it certainly seems likely. In wartime? Not likely. Even today, standardization is vital in military provision.
In our time, most bows are considerably lighter in draw weight, and as we all know, to be consistently accurate, you must match your equipment, ie: arrow spine must match bow weight. This is certainly something I have experienced first hand. I have shot many different spine weights and arrow weights from my 90# yew selfbow, from 600 grain flight arrows, to 80 gram military arrows, with consistent results. However, my lighter target bows all require careful matching of arrows to provide the best accuracy.
And yes, I agree, most modern re-enactment archers have NO CLUE about true medieval martial archery activities.
« Last Edit: February 20, 2009, 12:27:56 am by adb »

Rod

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Re: Medieval Arrow Question
« Reply #3 on: February 25, 2009, 05:49:34 am »
The systematic calibration of spine by measuring the degree of bending under the application of a standardised weight appears to have been entirely unknown in historic and primitive archery.

The most common systematic method of shaft selection from a production point of view, where one existed other than empirical testing by only shooting and discarding and by relating the "feel" of a hand flexed shaft to those that flew well, was to select shafts by weight.

This is sensible as a general principle, given that there is a relationship between wood density and stiffness at any given diameter of shaft.
But it is not as precise a measure of individual shaft spine as measuring deflection of individual shafts.

In any case it is likely that subsequent arrow selection would be done by inspection of grain, shaft straightness, trueness of nock, point and fletching and only then subject to the empirical test of shooting individual shafts and discarding those that did not fly cleanly or go where they were aimed.

Of course this system of empirical testing falls down if the archer has insufficient command or understanding of what he himself is doing, since to make any worthwhile judgement about arrow match it is necessary to be able to distinguish between what the archer is doing and what the equipment is doing.

But it does seem likely that this is what a marksman would do.
In the absence of a systematic understanding of spine and what later became known as "the archer's paradox", such inspection and empirical testing is the only practical option, but like our modern precise spine matching, it only has value within the context of the individual archer's ability to derive a real benefit from such activity.
For the less competent, the archer induced variation is very often greater than any benefit derived from precise spine matching.

It is a truism now as it was then, that a good archer will most likely shoot poor equipment better and more accurately than a lousy archer will shoot good equipment.
Some things never change, only the measure by which they are judged.

That the production of livery shafts should have been standardised to some degree is only logical and there is evidence to support this view, but as far as I know very little specific about standards set or the nature of any quality control, although it is known that inspection and quality control of some sort was applied to both regulating the import of staves and the production of bows.

It is logical that a marksman might cull the general stock, selecting for clean straight grain, sound and straight fletching, points well applied and nocks cut true and not overlarge.
He could also enlarge a thin nock more conveniently than reduce one that was too loose, or adjust his serving to suit a standard sized nock, or correct one that was slightly askew if not too large.
He could reset a point or straighten a shank, even refletch a shaft.
But the time so invested would most likely be spent only upon shafts reserved for more demanding tasks.

That a marksman and indeed any competent archer would be selective about his shafts when he could, reserving any "best" shafts for particular use if he had the option is only logical.
But those who were less able might just take the standard issue as it came.

For the primary (or the initial?) task in battle of providing barrage fire at a distance against massed companies of men, judgement of length would be more important than individual accuracy, but realistically there must also have been situations enough that required individual accuracy and not always at short distances, even though a close shot might be more certain.
And in any company of selected men there would always be those who were more accomplished in this respect.

These men one might expect to reserve their selected shafts for particular use and be as capable as anyone else, if not more so, of effectively using the common issue of livery shafts.
Many of those less capable might rely entirely on the common issue of livery shafts.

Rod.
« Last Edit: March 23, 2009, 06:40:21 am by Rod »

Offline bow-toxo

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Re: Medieval Arrow Question
« Reply #4 on: March 10, 2009, 03:19:58 pm »
Let me start by stating some assumptions I have about arrow selection even in medieval days and then ask my question. 

My Question:

Wouldn't the medieval archer have boldly personalized his arrow set after painstakingly going through the process of selecting each arrow that went with him on a campaign?  If so then why hasn't the historical reenactment community done the same?   Maybe they have.  I'm not a reenactor so maybe that's why I haven't seen too many examples of it.  Whenever I've seen an example of Medieval arrows, it's always a natural wood shaft with white or black fletching and tied off with white or black silk string. 

Keep in mind my questions are only valid if my assumptions are valid.

Thanks in advance for your thoughts and expertise.

Allen


 i don't know which of your assumptions might be valid. Most known Tudor and mediaeval arrows were around 1/2 " maximum diameter, usually tapered or barreled.That's not much evidence of spine adjustment.  Practice arrows were in the legally required  sets of three, even for nobles. These might be 'paired', matched for dimension and weight. Campaign arrows were livery arrows standardized and supplied by the crown, especially in the major wars. Many mediaeval arrows show examples of 'cresting', usually bands of black and/or red, or carved marks. One Viking source mentions gold bands. White fletching is sometimes shown partly dyed in red, black or blue. Fletching is known to have been tied with red or green thread.

                                                      Erik

Rod

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Re: Medieval Arrow Question
« Reply #5 on: March 12, 2009, 08:01:11 am »
It seems to be a practical conclusion, not unsupported by the imagery available that whilst hunting or target shafts might be personalised, sometimes quite elaborately particularly for a wealthy client, in the manufacture of livery shafts it would be both uneconomic and unnecessary.

It is also probable that "marksmen" might select and set aside some "best" shafts out of livery issue for particular use but otherwise use the undifferentiated issue in appropriate circumstances.

In cultures where individuals might make and employ smaller quantities of shafts it is likewise probable that there would be some degree of personalisation.

I think it likely that how a "marksman" thought about his gear is something that did not change much over time or across different cultures.
Likewise the practicalities of the common soldierremain the same, making best use of what is available in a given context.

Rod.